Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM

Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

[CCWoody]

It is irrelavent what it means to me for the Lord to rule with a rod of iron and to dash them into pieces. It is what the Bible says that this means and I just can't imagine that you are now telling me that the Millennium of peace, where the swords are beat into plowshares, must be ruled with a rod of iron and the Lord must dash them into pieces to keep all the citizens "obedient" as you have said.

Of course, I'd expect that the Lord must rule like this while His kingdom is full of offensive things and persons. Yet, I have the sure word of the Lord that at the end of this age, the age where the Son of Man sows the good seed and Satan sows the Tares, The Lord will have all things offensive cast into the furnace of fire (Mat 13:40). Unfortunately for your Millennium, this occurs 1000 years too soon.

[kjam22]

Except for 1 important guy I think it is. The guy that touches the ball on every single offensive play. (Not the center)

[xzins]

Woody, there will be a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. Rev 5:10.

It will be with a "rod of iron." He will maintain the peace.

The Christ, who was "caught up to the throne of God," will return and will "rule them with a rod of iron."

After that rule, Satan will be released for a short season. He will deceive again. He and those who follow him, gog and magog, will be eternally cast into the lake of fire.

(BTW, is the "lake of fire" figurative, symbolic, phsical, metaphoric.....what in the amil view?)

[xzins]

What was that nat'l champ q'back's name? He loved to win, didn't he? He was always looking for a way to make it happen. In that regard he reminded me of Joe Montana.

Weak q'back = no Big12 championship. Therefore, no nat'l championship.

[xzins]

. The guy that touches the ball on every single offensive play. (Not the center)

Ahhhhhhhh....the REFEREE!! (LOL)

It is easier to win with them on the team, isn't it? (Chuckle)

BTW, I say that as a Kansas State alum (Masters degree) who loves to see the Big8 win. (I have yet to accept the Big12 ruining a perfectly good conference....who wants Tezas, anyway?)

[Matchett-PI]

"..Or to use the very interesting language of Revelation 20:4, you just have to be one of those who has been beheaded--as all Christians are."

That's because the head of the old man is Satan until he is beheaded by Christ (regenerated).

At that time he obtains a new head ---- the Lord AND Savior Jesus Christ..

Jesus Christ was the head of "the church in the wilderness" (into which we were grafted) and he will continue the process of building his church [Eph.1:4] until all the rest of the elect are gathered in during these 'times of the Gentiles'.

Moses was one of the elect in the OT who was chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. That automatically put him 'in the church'.

The Gospel itself says that one is saved by union with Christ ONLY. There are not two Brides of Christ / two peoples of God.

[Woodkirk]

So when does Zechariah 14:16 occur --- before or after the
earth is burned up? You have a 50/50 chance of being right on
something this morning. Take it ---

[RnMomof7]

Jean is a sweetie...as are his wife and baby....no bitterness there xzins...

I would adopt him...but we might have some doctrinal differences:>))))))

[RnMomof7]

Back months ago now, I pledged with "dittojed" and others not to engage in personal attacks. I don't know if I'm perfect on that score but it is the right answer. Throughout this thread, you will find me referring to "amils" or to "premils" or to "postmils." The point is to go after ideas, not to go after people.

I did not sign onto that right? I can still call you Father X right? :>))

[xzins]

"..Or to use the very interesting language of Revelation 20:4, you just have to be one of those who has been beheaded--as all Christians are." That's because the head of the old man is Satan until he is beheaded by Christ (regenerated).

C'mon, matchett, you don't really believe in allegorizing to that degree do you? It becomes unintelligible after a while.

Behead = regenerate?

satan = old man?

Like Reagan used to say, will someone please give me the "codeword" for "states rights?"

If beheading isn't beheading and satan isn't satan, will someone please give me the codewords so I can talk about those two subjects in the appropriate code?

[RnMomof7]

and I just can't imagine that you are now telling me that the Millennium of peace, where the swords are beat into plowshares, must be ruled with a rod of iron and the Lord must dash them into pieces to keep all the citizens "obedient" as you have said.



Good point Woody

[xzins]

I did not sign onto that right? I can still call you Father X right? :>))

Correct, you did not sign on.

You can call me Father X...but only after you kiss my ring. LOL.

Until then call me, Z. It's been my nickname for years....since high school.

[RnMomof7]

OK Guys I need some clarification here...I am pretty end times dumb..the whole topic has been a yawn to me untill the last two weeks...It was always my assumption that the millennium would be a time when only the saints were on earth..

So now I am greatly confused by the discussion which then includes will babies be born during the millennium and the need of God to rule wirh an IRON rod,,.....so This dumb blond that has TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many senior moments would like each of the posters to list the order of events as THEY believe scripture outlines them

Please list them 1 to ??? in order with at least one scripture citation...

This will help me understand all the confusion I am reading ...

thanks

terry

[Matchett-PI]

"So when does Zechariah 14:16 occur --- before or after the earth is burned up? You have a 50/50 chance of being right on something this morning. Take it ---"

Let's see.... aren't you one of the ones in the amen corner with xzins, et.al, when ftD interpreted the Scriptures to say that [a] angels came down from heaven and had sexual relations with women on earth -- [b] the enemies of God who stay home on "The Day of the Lord" will not be killed -- [c] even though they're not goats, the sheep will also be ruled over with a rod of iron -- [d] the Father has a Bride (Isreal) and the Son has a Bride (the Church) which answers the sticky problem of Christ being a bigomist otherwise -- [e] etc.,etc.

In light of the foregoing, I hope you don't think any orthodox Christians will consider your 'interpretation' of Zech 14 to legitimately belong anywhere other than in a comic book. LOL

The Scriptures interpret the Scriptures and they teach this:

Zech 1: 1-21 is an apocalyptic description of "the day of the Lord".

During "the day of the Lord" Jerusalem, the figure of God's elect / the church, after suffering tribulation all during the "times of the Gentiles" (called the "church age" or "the millennium") while Satan is bound, comes under even more tribulation after Satan is loosed again "for a season" just before the return of Christ.

The elect (Jerusalem) will come under siege [Zech 14:1-3]; plague [Zech 14:12,15], and riot [Zech 14:13].

But she will be rescued by the Lord [Zech 14:4-5].

And the Lord will bless her greatly [Zech 14:6-11,14,16-21] forever.

[Woodkirk]

Well for starters, the saints are promised that they will rule --- rule what or whom? each other? what kind of rule is that? And then with a rod of iron --- why would you need a rod of iron for resurrected saints?

There are those on earth who are not in the Valley of Megiddo when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 14:16 tells you what they do "from year to year" for a thousand years.

There will also be those on earth who heeded the warning of the angel not to worship the beast or receive his mark. Many will be beheaded, others persecuted, and others will go into hiding. God will keep his promise to them for heeding his warning.

The fact that there are swords to be beat into plowshares indicates that there is still a warring mentality that has to be overcome amongst the survivors of the Tribulation. Among the survivors will be those who wanted to survive and be part of the kingdom of God, but not under the King of Israel and his saints. He will reign until he has brought these under his authority. Those who will not submit to his authority wil be separated out as "goats".

The fact that when Satan is loosed and he is able to gather together an army to come against the saints of God after Jesus has been ruling for a thousand years is indicative of the perpetuation of a "rebellious nature" still prevalent within the heart of many as far as a thousand years into the Millenium. These can't possibly be resurrected saints, but they can be Tribulation survivors or descendants thereof, with a short memory and a shorter future.

[CCWoody]

"Why do nations rage,..."? The nations set themselves in a visible agitation against the Lord and His Anointed. The word with which Paul renders this in the Greek denotes rage, pride, and restiveness, as of horses that neigh, and rush into the battle. "Why do the heathen plot a vain thing?" It is a vain thing; their hands could not perform it. "The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying, 'Let us break Their bonds in pieces and cast away Their cords from us.'"

What! O ye kings, do ye think yourselves Samsons? and are the bands of Omnipotence but as green withs before you? Do you dream that you shall snap to pieces and destroy the mandates of God—the decrees of the Most High—as if they were but tow? and do ye say, "Let us cast away their cords from us?" Yes! There are monarchs who have spoken thus, and there are still rebels upon thrones. However mad the resolution to revolt from God, it is one in which man has persevered ever since his creation, and he continues in it to this very day. ~ Spurgeon

And thus, when Jesus tells the Pharisees the parable of the wicked vinedressers, they knew that He was speaking of them. They imagined that they could kill Him and take His inheritance for themselves. Verse 8 speaks plainly that the nations are the inheritance of the Lord.

So, the Father laughs at them and shall hold them in derision. Then He shall speak to them and distress them for that which they sought to prevent, the Lord has already accomplished: "I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion." The Lord reigns from Zion, and our glad lips should show our praises to the King of kings and Lord of lords. It is Zion's glory and joy that her King is in her. Jesus sits upon the throne of grace, and the throne of power in the midst of his church. Let her citizens be glad in Him and let her foes cry out in terror.

Therefore, let us hear the decree from the King:

• "I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.'"

The Father has laughed at the counsel of the wicked and now the Son will declare His rights to Sovereignty. He declares to His very enemies that they are nothing but His possession, to dispose of as He will. And so, not only has the Father given Him the rights to rule, but also the means and power to accomplish that end. The Lord has in His hand a rod of iron which He will use to dash into pieces and break those who will not submit to Him.

And with this in mind, David gives counsel to the nations:

• "Be wise, O kings; be instructed, you judges of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him."

The Father has already given all nations to the Son. He, even today, rules them with a rod of iron. Therefore, you kings of the earth serve the Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling. Let there be a certain flesh trembling fear in our holy reverence and joy in the Lord. If we do not pay our respect to the Son we will perish when His wrath is kindled.

The Father has committed all judgment to the Son and His throne is prepared for judgment. We are told that when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. And all nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another. He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come you blessed." Then He will say to those on His left hand, "Depart you cursed." And the cursed will go into the everlasting fire.

[the_doc]

Actually, I would prefer to elaborate on the idea of beheading in this way: The death of Christ Himself was a kind of capital punishment of the Body of Christ. God's elect undergo this capital (beheading) experience one by one in the vicarious way of conversion.

It is incidentally true that the old head (Satan) is removed from the Body of Christ. But this is because Christ was made a kind of serpent in the transaction of His death.

I believe that it's no accident that this idea of the capital punishment of the Body works so well in Revelation 20. The Body idea is very very important in the New Testament (in ways which are sometimes overlooked, I might add). And as Arthur Pink pointed out in his commentary on Hebrews, the death of Christ really was the capital (beheading) punishment of the entire Body.

Notice that the above discussion would automatically explain why the saved souls in Revelation 20 are depicted as beheaded rather than burned or torn apart by lions or run through with a sword.

[CCWoody]

It was always my assumption that the millennium would be a time when only the saints were on earth..

I was told that as well, but we have xzins and Woodkirk both telling us that it is not so. And nobdysfool keeps hounding me for misrepresenting PreMillennialism. So, it would seem that we have many brands of PreMils, who can't even agree with each other what the Millennium of Peace will be like.

[RnMomof7]

Good I was afraid ..I thought I had to be nice to you...*grin*

[RnMomof7]

So the order is the Tribulation...some beheaded for not worshipping the beast...then the rapture...the return of Christ to rule with the saints?

Could ya just list the events?like 1)antichrist, 2) tribulation 3)rapture 4)Christ return....and so forth