Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM

Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

[xzins]

---

CONFUSED ABOUT SPURGEON'S PROPHETIC VIEWS?

— WELL, NO LONGER!  HERE IS...

. Charles Haddon Spurgeon's VIEW OF THE
MILLENNIUM
	Annotated Summary by
	MARK A. MCNEIL

"I am not now going into millennial theories, or into any speculation as to dates. I do not know anything at all about such things, and I am not sure that I am called to spend my time in such researches. I am rather called to minister the gospel than to open prophecy. Those who are wise in such things doubtless prize their wisdom, but I have not the time to acquire it, nor any inclination to leave soul-winning pursuits for less arousing themes. I believe it is a great deal better to leave many of these promises, and many of these gracious out-looks of believers, to exercise their full force upon our minds, without depriving them of their simple glory by aiming to discover dates and figures. Let this be settled, however, that if there be meaning in words, Israel is yet to be restored. Israel is to have a SPIRITUAL RESTORATION or a CONVERSION."

[from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 429, Ezekiel 37:1-10 (age 30)]

INTRODUCTION

There has been some considerable difference of opinion regarding the position that C. H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher from the 19th century, held in the area of Eschatology — regarding the doctrine of the Millennium. Each of the three major divisions within this area of doctrine have proponents who claim Spurgeon as one of their own. Many times authors claim a different millennial view than what Spurgeon actually believed.

It is not our task to sort out the arguments for each view. Such an assignment would take a very large volume (many are available) and the issue would still not be solved for all. We would simply like to define the basic positions and then demonstrate from Spurgeon's own words which one view he held.

PREMILLENNIALISM

The first view regarding the Millennium is that of PREMILLENNIALISM. The prefix, "Pre," denotes "before." The prefix is telling us at what point in relationship to the millennium that Christ will come. This view holds that our Lord will Literally return before a 1,000-year reign of Christ begins. The millennium of Revelation 20 is taken to be literal. If not literal, it at least is speaking of an indefinite period of time following the coming of Christ during which there will be perfect peace on the earth.

Within the premillennialist camp, there have come to be two identifiable views: the "dispensationalist" position, and the "historic" position. For further information defending each of these views, one should consult Reese's The Approaching Advent of Christ [historic] and Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come [dispensational]. Though the differences between the two are important, it is not within the scope of our purpose here to delve into such matters.

AMILLENNIALISM

The second view is called AMILLENNIALISM, or sometimes called "realized eschatology". The prefix, "A-," means "no". This would suggest that those who hold this view do not believe in a millennium. This is somewhat misleading, however. This view is the the product of a consistent Spiritual interpretation of prophetic literature. To those, the millennium is not some future physical reign, but the present reign of Christ in the hearts of believers. The "millennium" is an indefinite period of time (the present age) after which Christ will physically return. Prophecy in the Church, by Oswald Allis, is a standard work for the amillennial position.

This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church, also many other Protestant denominations. It grew out of St. Augustine's spiritualizing of these issues in his writings, and the tendency of many early Christian writers to see the Church as the "new Israel" and therefore the recipient of the promises of the Old Testament for the Jewish nation. Those who hold this view do not speak of the millennium as a future happening.  It is, to them, a Present Reality.

POSTMILLENNIALISM

The third, and last, major view is that of POSTMILLENNIALISM. The prefix "Post" speaks of "after." This teaching promotes the view that the physical return of Christ will Follow an actual millennium. The influence of Christianity will over-take the world for an extended period of time, then Christ will return.

This view appears to be a mixture of the principles that work to produce the first two views. It is not consistently spiritual or literal in its interpretation of the prophetic material relevant to this issue. Perhaps the foremost writing for this position today is The Millennium, by Loraine Boettner.

Spurgeon's VIEW  

With basic definitions before us, then, let's look at some quotes from Spurgeon to see what his position was on the Millennium.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

Spurgeon here specifically identifies the Postmillennial view with a clear DENIAL of any adherence to it! Those who attempt to claim Spurgeon for this viewpoint do not demonstrate their contention by referring to clear comparisons such as this one. They rather go to sermons not specifically dealing with both positions and pull out of them ideas that are "compatible" with Postmillennial thinking. This is a faulty way of proving a point, however* — especially when they meet squarely with a Spurgeon statement like the one above, and those below.

*NOTE: Furthur, a few postmillennialists (especially GARY NORTH), are guilty of misrepresenting Spurgeon constantly in articles and books; NORTH has repeatedly alleged that "Spurgeon was Postmillennial" — yet neither his supplied quotations "say" so, and/or he deliberately does not present a statement by Spurgeon that North will speculate "implies" a Postmillennial position. Our advice is to ignore anything North states regarding Spurgeon's views and Prophecy!

Again, consider Spurgeon's View here in light of 'Postmillennial' teaching...

"Paul does not paint the future with rose-colour: he is no smooth-tongued prophet of a golden age, into which this dull earth may be imagined to be glowing. There are sanguine brethren who are looking forward to everything growing better and better and better, until, at last, this present age ripens into a millennium. They will not be able to sustain their hopes, for Scripture gives them no solid basis to rest upon. We who believe that there will be no millennial reign without the King, and who expect no rule of righteousness except from the appearing of the righteous Lord, are nearer the mark. Apart from the second Advent of our Lord, the world is more likely to sink into a pandemonium than to rise into a millennium. A divine interposition seems to me the hope set before us in Scripture, and, indeed, to be the only hope adequate to the occasion. We look to the darkening down of things; the state of mankind, however improved politically, may yet grow worse and worse spiritually." [from The Form of Godliness Without the Power MTP Vol 35, Year 1889, pg. 301, 2 Timothy 3:5 (age 54)]

"We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, 'This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,' which must mean literally and in person. We expect a reigning Christ on earth; that seems to us to be very plain, and to be put so literally that we dare not spiritualise it. We anticipate a first and a second resurrection; a first resurrection of the righteous, and a second resurrection of the ungodly, who shall be judged, condemned, and punished for ever by the sentence of the great King." [from Things to Come MTP Vol 15, Year 1869, pg. 329, 1 Corinthians 3:22 (age 35)]

Here, stress is laid upon the Literal Nature of the second coming.  Also, after this literal return is stressed a reigning upon the earth.

"We have done once for all with the foolish ideas of certain of the early heretics, that Christ's appearance upon earth was but a phantom. We know that he was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come really, personally, and literally, the second time. I know there are some who are labouring to get rid of the fact of a personal reign, but as I take it, the coming and the reign are so connected together, that we must have a spiritual coming if we are to have a spiritual reign. Now we believe and hold that Christ shall come a second time suddenly, to raise his saints at the first judgment, and they shall reign with him afterwards. The rest of the dead live not till after the thousand years are finished. Then shall they rise from their tombs at the sounding of the trumpet, and their judgment shall come and they shall receive the deeds which they have done in their bodies." [from The Two Advents of Christ MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pg. 39, Hebrews 9:27-28 (age 28)]

[from The Sinner's End MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pgs. 712-713, Psalms 73:17-18 (age 28)], Spurgeon is discussing the final condition of the sinner — "Let us go on to consider their end. The day of days, that dreadful day has come. The millennial rest is over, the righteous have had their thousand years of glory upon earth."

In the quotes above, the order of events fits perfectly the PREmillennial point of view. The final end of the sinner is faced after the righteous have enjoyed a thousand years with Christ.

.
	"Our Hope is the Personal PRE-MILLENNIAL RETURN of the   Lord Jesus Christ in Glory."
	— August 1891, age 58

Of the various articles and writings by those who deny the conclusion that we feel is obvious, none that I have found bases itself on the same type of quotes we have produced (many others could have been given — see those that follow). To the contrary, their's are based on "interpreting" Spurgeon's statements apart from such quotes that we have given.

.

We feel safe in concluding, then,

that of the three views we began with,

Spurgeon expressly states that he believes in a

Literal Return of Jesus Christ

BEFORE

a Literal Millennium on the Earth.

———————————————————————————

.

Written by Mark A. McNeil (Houston TX USA), B.A., M.A., & PhD. Student

Author of An Evaluation of the 'Oneness Pentecostal' Movement

$3 + $1 shipping — Published by Pilgrim Publications

— also Read C. H. SPURGEON on "PRETERISM" <<< Click Link

  Join our company... Psalm 68:11 "The Lord gave the WORD:

Great was the COMPANY of those that PUBLISHED it."

Please, Copy this article, pass it on, and mail to others.

Permission granted by Bob L. Ross — No Copyright

NOTES OF INTEREST

Watching and Waiting Magazine

                                          by C. W. H. Griffiths

Published by Sovereign Grace Advent Testimony

1 Donald Way, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 9JB United Kingdom

Stephen A. Toms, secretary

— Write and Request the Complete Article            

From the Summer 1990 issue of this magazine, C. W. H. Griffiths states Spurgeon "was a valued standard bearer for historic Pre-millennialism," and then presents an excellent article defending his Pre-millennial position.

Documenting additional quotations which we have added and expanded below —

Spurgeon (age 43) — There is moreover to be a reign of Christ. I cannot read the Scriptures without perceiving that there is to be a pre-millennial reign, as I believe, upon the earth and that there shall be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness...

Spurgeon (age 49) — Then all His people who are alive at the time of His coming shall be suddenly transformed, so as to be delivered from all the frailties and imperfections of their mortal bodies: The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. Then we shall be presented spirit, soul, and body without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; in the clear and absolute perfection of our sanctified manhood, presented unto Christ Himself.

Spurgeon (age 50) — When the Lord comes there will be no more death; we who are alive and remain (as some of us may be — we cannot tell) will undergo a sudden transformation — for flesh and blood, as they are, cannot inherit the kingdom of God — and by that transformation our bodies shall be made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.

Spurgeon (age 52) — His coming will cause great sorrow. What does the text say about his coming? All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Then this sorrow will be very general.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pgs. 427-430, Ezekiel  37:1-10] — Under the preaching of the Word the vilest sinners can be reclaimed, the most stubborn wills can be subdued, the most unholy lives can be sanctified. When the holy "breath" comes from the four winds, when the divine Spirit descends to own the Word, then multitudes of sinners, as on Pentecost's hallowed day, stand up upon their feet, an exceeding great army, to praise the Lord their God. But, mark you, this is not the first and proper interpretation of the text; it is indeed nothing more than a very striking parallel case to the one before us. It is not the case itself; it is only a similar one, for the way in which God restores a nation is, practically, the way in which he restores an individual. The way in which Israel shall be saved is the same by which any one individual sinner shall be saved. It is not, however, the one case which the prophet is aiming at; he is looking at the vast mass of cases, the multitudes of instances to be found among the Jewish people, of gracious quickening, and holy resurrection. His first and primary intention was to speak of them, and though it is right and lawful to take a passage in its widest possible meaning, since "no Scripture is of private interpretation," yet I hold it to be treason to God's Word to neglect its primary meaning, and constantly to say — "Such-and-such is the primary meaning, but it is of no consequence, and I shall use the words for another object." The preacher of God's truth should not give up the Holy Ghost's meaning; he should take care that he does not even put it in the back ground. The first meaning of a text, the Spirit's meaning, is that which would be brought out first, and though the rest may fairly spring out of it, yet the first sense should have the chief place. Let it have the uppermost place in the synagogue, let it be looked upon as at least not inferior, either in interest or importance, to any other meaning which may come out of the text.

The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality; and then, secondly, there is in the text, and in the context, a most plain declaration, that there shall be a spiritual restoration, a conversion in fact, of the tribes of Israel.

The promise is that they shall renounce their idols, and, behold, they have already done so. "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols." Whatever faults the Jew may have besides, he certainly has no idolatry. "The Lord thy God is one God," is a truth far better conceived by the Jew than by any other man on earth except the Christian. Weaned for ever from the worship of all images, of whatever sort, the Jewish nation has now become infatuated with traditions or duped by philosophy. She is to have, however, instead of these delusions, a spiritual religion: she is to love her God. "They shall be my people, and I will be their God." The unseen but omnipotent Jehovah is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth by his ancient people; they are to come before him in his own appointed way, accepting the Mediator whom their sires rejected; coming into covenant relation with God, for so our text tells us — "I will make a covenant of peace with them," and Jesus is our peace, therefore we gather that Jehovah shall enter into the covenant of grace with them, that covenant of which Christ is the federal head, the substance, and the surety. They are to walk in God's ordinances and statutes, and so exhibit the practical effects of being united to Christ who hath given them peace. All these promises certainly imply that the people of Israel are to be converted to God, and that this conversion is to be permanent, for the tabernacle of God is to be with them, the Most High is, in an especial manner, to have his sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore; so that whatever nations may apostatize and turn from the Lord in these latter days, the nation of Israel never can, for she shall be effectually and permanently converted, the hearts of the fathers shall be turned with the hearts of the children unto the Lord their God, and they shall be the people of God, world without end.

We look forward, then, for these two things. I am not going to theorize upon which of them will come first, whether they shall be restored first, and converted afterwards, or converted first, and then restored. They are to be restored, and they are to be converted too. Let the Lord send these blessings in his own order, and we shall be well content whichever way they shall come. We take this for our joy and our comfort, that this thing shall be, and that both in the spiritual and in the temporal throne, the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Lamb — the Light MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 439, Revelation 21:23] — (Spurgeon says of the millennial earth), They shall not say one to another, "Know the Lord: for all shall know him, from the least to the greatest." There may be even in that period certain solemn assemblies and Sabbath-days, but they will not be of the same kind as we have now; for the whole earth will be a temple, every day will be a Sabbath, the avocations of men will all be priestly, they shall be a nation of priests — distinctly so, and they shall day without night serve God in his temple, so that everything to which they set their hand shall be a part of the song which shall go up to the Most High. Oh! blessed day. Would God it had dawned, when these temples should be left, because the whole world should be a temple for God. But whatever may be the splendours of that day — and truly here is a temptation to let our imagination revel — however bright may be the walls set with chalcedony and amethyst, however splendid the gates which are of one pearl, whatever may be the magnificence set forth by the "streets of gold," this we know, that the sum and substance, the light and glory of the whole will be the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, "for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Now, I want the Christian to meditate over this. In the highest, holiest, and happiest era that shall ever dawn upon this poor earth, Christ is to be her light. When she puts on her wedding garments, and adorns herself as a bride is adorned with jewels, Christ is to be her glory and her beauty. There shall be no ear-rings in her ears made with other gold than that which cometh from his mine of love; there shall be no crown set upon her brow fashioned by any other hand than his hands of wisdom and of grace. She sits to reign, but it shall be upon his throne; she feeds, but it shall be upon his bread; she triumphs, but it shall be because of the might which ever belongs to him who is the Rock of Ages. Come then, Christian, contemplate for a moment thy beloved Lord. Jesus, in a millennial age, shall be the light and the glory of the city of the new Jerusalem. Observe then, that Jesus makes the light of the millennium, because his presence will be that which distinguishes that age from the present. That age is to be akin to paradise. Paradise God first made upon earth, and paradise God will last make. Satan destroyed it; and God will never have defeated his enemy until he has re-established paradise, until once again a new Eden shall bless the eyes of God's creatures. Now, the very glory and privilege of Eden I take to be not the river which flowed through it with its four branches, nor that it came from the land of Havilah which hath dust of gold — I do not think the glory of Eden lay in its grassy walks, or in the boughs bending with luscious fruit — but its glory lay in this, that the "Lord God walked in the garden in the cool of the day." Here was Adam's highest privilege, that he had companionship with the Most High. In those days angels sweetly sang that the tabernacle of God was with man, and that he did dwell amongst them. Brethren, the paradise which is to be regained for us will have this for its essential and distinguishing mark, that the Lord shall dwell amongst us. This is the name by which the city is to be called — Jehovah Shammah, the Lord is there. It is true we have the presence of Christ in the Church now — "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." We have the promise of his constant indwelling: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." But still that is vicariously by his Spirit, but soon he is to be personally with us. That very man who once died upon Calvary is to live here. He — that same Jesus — who was taken up from us, shall come in like manner as he was taken up from the gazers of Galilee. Rejoice, rejoice, beloved, that he comes, actually and really comes; and this shall be the joy of that age, that he is among his saints, and dwelleth in them, with them, and talketh and walketh in their midst.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

[RnMomof7]

Or, are you trying to tell me that you are ~PRESUMING~ that this book ~only~ speaks of future events??? If so, what is your basis for this ~ASSUMPTION~?

I believe it contains past , present (for John ) and future events ..(and you do to as you do believe in the tribilation)

[nate4one]

Anyway it would be interesting to see if anyone else has looked at it this way or if they will think I’m all washed up.

I have entertained it. But I think you hit the nail on the head here:
What I’m thinking of is since God doesn’t live on a time frame he still has to translate his thinking to humans in a time frame. a

You could not have illustrated this for me better.
I believe, to show Himself ture, that God did a great jog of this. I have mentioned His prophecy to Abraham when He said that the Jews would be slaves for 400 years. He was on time with Moses and that is why the Jews were at that time earnestly seeking a "deliverer."
The same with the 70 weeks. God gave a time frame of when to expect the Messiah and guess what? Christ was right on time. The tension and expectation was great during His life also. The KNEW the messiah was supposed to e there. But out of pride and holding a false hope (an earthly kingdom ruled by the Messiah where power would be with the Jews forever) caused them to kill Him. Alll the while fulfilling God's ultimate plan of salvation.
And I believe the very specific signs and time statements of CHrist came true right on time. It seemed to be God's style to be on time, yet use descriptive and apocolyptic language.

Salvation is talked about in a past, present and future tense within the Bible.

YES!!
Because the process of salvation was to continue forever. How many verses declare the church to be a "forever" concept? Or how many declare God's kingdom to be everlasting?
Salvation of man is something that will continue, as is, forever.
The difference is in the covenant. THAT is what was changing. THAT was the split of the age. "The end of the age" was the end of the Old Covenant age. NOT the end of the world.

And the fact that the second resurrection was a past event, only tells us that now, when we experience the first resurrection, when we die in the flesh, we instantly recieve our new bodies and go to be with the Lord.
In the Old Covenant, their souls still died with their body, held in "hades" until the second coming.
Since the second resurrection occurd in AD 70 (on time), hades is destroyed, and those who have faith in Christ NEVER die.
John 11:24 Martha said, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." 25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in Me, even if he dies, will live. 26 Everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die--ever. Do you believe this?"

Think about this carefully, until death is defeated (1 Cor 15:51-54), this statement was not yet in effect, it was a HOPE. But now, since the ressurection has happened, it is ture and continues for all who are saved.
You do not need to hope for a second resurrection. Because you never really die. They hoped for one, because they wanted to escape hades. Now there IS NO hades.
Somehow my eschatology is bankrupt? I think the truth is actually MORE glorious!!

This time I may have everyone calling me a heretic.

Just shove it off. Only an Apostle can call you that

[Matchett-PI]

sola gracia: ~~"I believe one's eschatological views are very important. What one believe's about the "end" affects how one lives today"~~

Here's an item you might find interesting:

Does Eschatology Matter?

Have you ever heard someone say that studying eschatology is a waste of time? It is not uncommon for evangelicals to dismiss the biblical teachings of prophecy as irrelevant or unimportant. "It doesn't affect one's Christian life one way or another, so why should I bother with it?" Often the unspoken implication of such a statement is "Why should you bother with it either?"

Why is the study of eschatology important?

First, the Bible is given to us that we might know God and His will.

Anything God has chosen to reveal to us is certainly worth studying. It seems odd, therefore, that Christians would opt to downplay certain parts of God's revelation as irrelevant.

Second, while eschatology may not be among the essential doctrines of the faith, neither is it unimportant.

Barton Payne estimated that 38% of the Bible deals with prophecy, which is not an insignificant amount.

Third, eschatology deals with God's plan in human history. How can anyone say that God's plan for the human race has no effect on one's life?

Sometimes one hears a conversation that goes something like this:

Person A: "Oh, I see that you are convinced of (fill in the blank: Pre-,Post-, or A-) millennialism. That's all well and good, but why do you waste your time?"

Person B: "Oh . . . what is your eschatological persuasion?"

Person A: "I'm a panmillennialist."

Person B: "Huh?"

Person A: "I believe God will make it all `pan out' in the end."

There are those who use the "panmillennial" line innocently enough. They are eschatological agnostics who have not adopted an eschatological position.

There are others who use the phrase in a scoffing sense.

They are the ones who have concluded that God's course for human history is unknowable and, as such, they believe that those who hold to a particular millennial view are naive and lacking perspective.

Or perhaps the panmillennialist believes the subject matter is too unimportant for his attention. In either case there can be an air of superiority on the part of the panmillennialist.

I tend to have greater respect for a brother who can articulate a particular millennial viewpoint from the Scriptures (even if I disagree with his use of the Bible) than I do for those who presume that God has left us in the dark on such issues.

In general, I find those who claim that eschatology has no effect on one's lifestyle to be those with a pessimistic view of the future.

This claim seems to me a form of denial, like an investor who denies the possibility of loss in the stock market or a Californian who disregards the possibility of a major earthquake.

In contrast to the denial that eschatology has no effect on lifestyle, other pessimists believe the increasing evil will result in unprecedented temptations away from godliness and they have resolved to remain obedient despite the cost.

One pastor told me, "We're going down, but we'll go down fighting!" Even here the presumption of inevitable doom, despite the well-intended obedience, has deep implications.

Knowing that prophecy affected the way people behaved, the leaders of the fledgling dispensational movement in the 1800's intended to use premillennial eschatology as a club to wake up the backslidden church and to call sinners to repentance.

Despite believing in an irreversible decline in society, they had hoped that preaching an "any moment" return of Christ would awake a moribund Church.

The result, as described by a premillennialist, is more of the same: "twentieth-century premillennialists tend to be pessimistic, fatalistic, nonpolitical, and nonactivist."
It is hard to imagine an area of life that is not touched by eschatology.

A pessimist will plan for the short term, an optimist for the long term.

Do you disciple your children in such a way that they will know how to disciple their children? Or do you believe as many do that we are in the "terminal generation"?

Do you educate your children the same way? Do you save your money with your children's children in mind (Prov. 13:22)?

If you believe the end is near, why should you save? (How many churches and individuals, convinced of an imminent rapture, have accumulated indebtedness believing they will never have to pay back their debt in full?)

Do you work toward progressive sanctification in your life, in your family, in your work, in your neighborhood, in your community, in your church? Or have you abandoned any hope of God-ordained revival, believing instead that irreversible decline is inevitable?

Eschatology affects one's perseverance. Not long ago a premillennialist confronted a postmillennialist undergoing a series of trials. "I would think these injustices would cause you to become a premillennialist." "On the contrary," said the other, "If I were a premillennialist I would have given up in despair long ago."

The eschatological presuppositions of pessimism or optimism affect virtually every decision a Christian makes. The more a decision is affected by time, the more one's eschatological persuasion will influence his decision.

Eschatology has a very profound effect on one's life. As a man thinks, so is he (Prov. 23:7).

http://www.credenda.org/issues/9-2eschaton.php

Volume 9, Issue 2: Eschaton / Jack Van Deventer

++++

Van Deventer is a post-mil (not of the a-mill variety), but makes many good points with which this a-mill can agree.

Personally, I subscribe to the amill position (Realized Millennium) that sees a ~~continuous parallel growth~~ of good and evil in the world between the first and second coming of Christ. I believe that Satan will be loosed for a short time after the church age (times of the Gentiles) just before the return of Christ.

[ReformedBeckite]

thanks for your comments, glad to see you see around and poking in once in a while like I do.

[drstevej]

***The result, as described by a premillennialist, is more of the same: "twentieth-century premillennialists tend to be pessimistic, fatalistic, nonpolitical, and nonactivist." ***

Who is the premil being quoted? I think it is a bogus generalization based upon my study of American church history and 25 years pastoral experience among premillennialists.

[ReformedBeckite]

...Only an Apostle can call you that.(heretic)

I didn't know that, is that in scripture.

[nate4one]

I didn't know that, is that in scripture.

No.
But in light of not Apostolic authority or "inspired" biblical authors being present, who can guarantee 100% accuracy in their interpretations?

i'll conceed that some things are common sense, but on issue like eschatology, it is opinion, interpretation and "wait and see."
And there is no Paul to insure we are all on the right track.

So who among us do you consider qualified to label youa heretic?

[RnMomof7]

Second, while eschatology may not be among the essential doctrines of the faith, neither is it unimportant.

Well that is surely not true on FR...blood is all over the place

[Matchett-PI]

"Who is the premil being quoted?"

I don't know. I think it would have been a good idea, myself, if he would have quoted a specific person.

On the other hand, cult-watchers will verify the fact that those who believe in various flavors of a future millennial reign on *this* earth, think "the end" is at hand, fear the "mark of the beast", etc., etc. live their lives in a pessimistic, (paranoid in some cases) short-term manner.

I personally know people who think that way. I also know people who listened to Gary North and read his Y2K chicken-little "scare books", sold all they had and moved into the wilderness and made themselves totally self-sufficient.LOL

[CCWoody]

"Do you mean passages in one of the four gospels, or passages that focus on the gospel?"

Luke 17:34 I have been told that this is the PreTrib Rapture of the church.

[PresbyRev]

There are some good articles at http://www.preteristarchive.com/ on the issue of eschatology and heresy.

[drstevej]

***Luke 17:34 I have been told that this is the PreTrib Rapture of the church.***

I have heard this before but I do not see this as the rapture. The parallel to Noah doesn't fit. Those taken away and remaining are reversed.

Noah: wicked taken away, righteous remain
Rapture: righteous taken, wicked remain

[nate4one]

I think we can agree that tis is future tense:>)

Yes Mom. And Revelation was written before AD 70. The one proof disputers have of this is flimsy at best.

[drstevej]

[1] I agree some premils are pessimistic but this is hardly characteristic of premillennialism in general. It is a stereotype.

[2] Gary North is, I believe, a postmillennialist. His Y2K books were indeed ridiculous and I said this in 1999. The people I know that were impacted by Gary North were not just premillennialists. He was a regular, polular guest on the Art Bell show which appeals to a cornucopia of viewpoints, a distinct minority of which are premillennialists.

BTW, there are clearly crackpots in our ranks (88 Reasons the rapture will be in 1988 being a prime example). But to write off premils due to this crowd is hardly objective analysis.

I believe the return of Christ could be very near but I am hardly a pessimist. We are expanding ministry not looking for a bunker! If I were making charicatures I might suggest that post-trib, premils were bunker types... but that is certainly not the case either--just another stereotype.

The stereotype analysis written from the extremes of any millennial view I find merely amusing at best and divisive and slanderous at worst.

[George W. Bush]

I believe one's eschatological views are very important. What one believe's about the "end" affects how one lives today.

I'd like to hear some concrete examples of this. We can leave aside the obvious and constant failures of Millerites (Seventh Day Adventists). They are not truly representative of premills generally. I don't think we have any date-setters among the premills here on this thread so comparison with the errors of Millerism could hardly be said to apply.

Precisely how do you envision that a person's daily walk with God can affected by their particular brand of millennarian thinking? If you are amillennial, does that give you an immunity to certain types of deception? Can it make you complacent? If RnMom (or any of us) is premillennial to any degree, is that necessarily a weakness and a snare?

For the teacher is not to quarrel but to be gentle and patient in their teaching.

A sound reminder. And fairly easy advice to take from someone who actually practices it consistently here at FR.

FRegards.

[George W. Bush]

The Left Behind books are clearly not the height of religious fiction in terms of being well-written, but I have found them rather entertaining. While I don't really agree with all the theology behind them, I cannot be too harsh...after all, it was that first book that was instrumental in making me a serious student of the Word.

No doubt. I'm glad that the Lord used such a poor instrument to draw you to more Biblical studies. Far more unlikely things have been used by our Lord to draw His own nearer to Him.

I think that Southern Baptist churches could probably increase attendance and even get a few converts from Gospel preaching if we brought 'em through the door by handing out copies of Hustler. But even if the Lord should choose to use poor materials to draw us, that doesn't mean that they represent the best way to evangelize those who are lost or straying.

All that said, reading a Left Behind book is still probably a lot more wholesome than an evening parked in front of a television.

[nate4one]

I cannot access your site. Is it down?

[Frumanchu]

All that said, reading a Left Behind book is still probably a lot more wholesome than an evening parked in front of a television.

I don't know...I was planning on doing a study of a parallel between the Browns at the end of yesterday's game and the ultimate victory of Christ using faith as the mechanism:)

While those books did get me studying, they also sparked unhealthy attitudes in me at that time. It seems silly now, but I really was consumed with the idea of being "rapture-ready" and spent so much time studying up on all I could about eschatology that I neglected many other important parts of my Christian walk. I do still recommend the books to others, but always stress that it is fiction and that their eschatological view is not the only one in the Christian community.

[George W. Bush]

While those books did get me studying, they also sparked unhealthy attitudes in me at that time. It seems silly now, but I really was consumed with the idea of being "rapture-ready" and spent so much time studying up on all I could about eschatology that I neglected many other important parts of my Christian walk.

For a real eyeful of premillennialism run amok, try visiting RaptureReady.com. Try reading their "Left Behind Letters" section or "The Post-Rapture Survival Guide". Still, the historic premils here at FR are not observably in that crowd of dispensational premillennialists.

The essentials of Christian spiritual don't really vary. One can obsess over any number of issues besides eschatology and find oneself straying from the true center of Christian life, that of Christ as our Sheperd and King. If millennarian philosophy draws you away from that, then it is a snare to be avoided. But one might make the same claims for charismania or sinless perfectionism or any number of other matters that can distract us from the central purpose of Christian life, i.e. Christ Himself.

[nate4one]

All that said, reading a Left Behind book is still probably a lot more wholesome than an evening parked in front of a television.

Have you seen the movie "Tribulation?"
I am not so sure you are right here.
Deception in the name of Christ is worse is it not?Escapeism, inspiring FALSE hope and showing ones self to be a false teacher and maybe even a dooms-day nut can be quite detrimental in my opinion.

Fiction is fiction.