Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM

Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

[xzins]

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CONFUSED ABOUT SPURGEON'S PROPHETIC VIEWS?

— WELL, NO LONGER!  HERE IS...

. Charles Haddon Spurgeon's VIEW OF THE
MILLENNIUM
	Annotated Summary by
	MARK A. MCNEIL

"I am not now going into millennial theories, or into any speculation as to dates. I do not know anything at all about such things, and I am not sure that I am called to spend my time in such researches. I am rather called to minister the gospel than to open prophecy. Those who are wise in such things doubtless prize their wisdom, but I have not the time to acquire it, nor any inclination to leave soul-winning pursuits for less arousing themes. I believe it is a great deal better to leave many of these promises, and many of these gracious out-looks of believers, to exercise their full force upon our minds, without depriving them of their simple glory by aiming to discover dates and figures. Let this be settled, however, that if there be meaning in words, Israel is yet to be restored. Israel is to have a SPIRITUAL RESTORATION or a CONVERSION."

[from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 429, Ezekiel 37:1-10 (age 30)]

INTRODUCTION

There has been some considerable difference of opinion regarding the position that C. H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher from the 19th century, held in the area of Eschatology — regarding the doctrine of the Millennium. Each of the three major divisions within this area of doctrine have proponents who claim Spurgeon as one of their own. Many times authors claim a different millennial view than what Spurgeon actually believed.

It is not our task to sort out the arguments for each view. Such an assignment would take a very large volume (many are available) and the issue would still not be solved for all. We would simply like to define the basic positions and then demonstrate from Spurgeon's own words which one view he held.

PREMILLENNIALISM

The first view regarding the Millennium is that of PREMILLENNIALISM. The prefix, "Pre," denotes "before." The prefix is telling us at what point in relationship to the millennium that Christ will come. This view holds that our Lord will Literally return before a 1,000-year reign of Christ begins. The millennium of Revelation 20 is taken to be literal. If not literal, it at least is speaking of an indefinite period of time following the coming of Christ during which there will be perfect peace on the earth.

Within the premillennialist camp, there have come to be two identifiable views: the "dispensationalist" position, and the "historic" position. For further information defending each of these views, one should consult Reese's The Approaching Advent of Christ [historic] and Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come [dispensational]. Though the differences between the two are important, it is not within the scope of our purpose here to delve into such matters.

AMILLENNIALISM

The second view is called AMILLENNIALISM, or sometimes called "realized eschatology". The prefix, "A-," means "no". This would suggest that those who hold this view do not believe in a millennium. This is somewhat misleading, however. This view is the the product of a consistent Spiritual interpretation of prophetic literature. To those, the millennium is not some future physical reign, but the present reign of Christ in the hearts of believers. The "millennium" is an indefinite period of time (the present age) after which Christ will physically return. Prophecy in the Church, by Oswald Allis, is a standard work for the amillennial position.

This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church, also many other Protestant denominations. It grew out of St. Augustine's spiritualizing of these issues in his writings, and the tendency of many early Christian writers to see the Church as the "new Israel" and therefore the recipient of the promises of the Old Testament for the Jewish nation. Those who hold this view do not speak of the millennium as a future happening.  It is, to them, a Present Reality.

POSTMILLENNIALISM

The third, and last, major view is that of POSTMILLENNIALISM. The prefix "Post" speaks of "after." This teaching promotes the view that the physical return of Christ will Follow an actual millennium. The influence of Christianity will over-take the world for an extended period of time, then Christ will return.

This view appears to be a mixture of the principles that work to produce the first two views. It is not consistently spiritual or literal in its interpretation of the prophetic material relevant to this issue. Perhaps the foremost writing for this position today is The Millennium, by Loraine Boettner.

Spurgeon's VIEW  

With basic definitions before us, then, let's look at some quotes from Spurgeon to see what his position was on the Millennium.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

Spurgeon here specifically identifies the Postmillennial view with a clear DENIAL of any adherence to it! Those who attempt to claim Spurgeon for this viewpoint do not demonstrate their contention by referring to clear comparisons such as this one. They rather go to sermons not specifically dealing with both positions and pull out of them ideas that are "compatible" with Postmillennial thinking. This is a faulty way of proving a point, however* — especially when they meet squarely with a Spurgeon statement like the one above, and those below.

*NOTE: Furthur, a few postmillennialists (especially GARY NORTH), are guilty of misrepresenting Spurgeon constantly in articles and books; NORTH has repeatedly alleged that "Spurgeon was Postmillennial" — yet neither his supplied quotations "say" so, and/or he deliberately does not present a statement by Spurgeon that North will speculate "implies" a Postmillennial position. Our advice is to ignore anything North states regarding Spurgeon's views and Prophecy!

Again, consider Spurgeon's View here in light of 'Postmillennial' teaching...

"Paul does not paint the future with rose-colour: he is no smooth-tongued prophet of a golden age, into which this dull earth may be imagined to be glowing. There are sanguine brethren who are looking forward to everything growing better and better and better, until, at last, this present age ripens into a millennium. They will not be able to sustain their hopes, for Scripture gives them no solid basis to rest upon. We who believe that there will be no millennial reign without the King, and who expect no rule of righteousness except from the appearing of the righteous Lord, are nearer the mark. Apart from the second Advent of our Lord, the world is more likely to sink into a pandemonium than to rise into a millennium. A divine interposition seems to me the hope set before us in Scripture, and, indeed, to be the only hope adequate to the occasion. We look to the darkening down of things; the state of mankind, however improved politically, may yet grow worse and worse spiritually." [from The Form of Godliness Without the Power MTP Vol 35, Year 1889, pg. 301, 2 Timothy 3:5 (age 54)]

"We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, 'This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,' which must mean literally and in person. We expect a reigning Christ on earth; that seems to us to be very plain, and to be put so literally that we dare not spiritualise it. We anticipate a first and a second resurrection; a first resurrection of the righteous, and a second resurrection of the ungodly, who shall be judged, condemned, and punished for ever by the sentence of the great King." [from Things to Come MTP Vol 15, Year 1869, pg. 329, 1 Corinthians 3:22 (age 35)]

Here, stress is laid upon the Literal Nature of the second coming.  Also, after this literal return is stressed a reigning upon the earth.

"We have done once for all with the foolish ideas of certain of the early heretics, that Christ's appearance upon earth was but a phantom. We know that he was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come really, personally, and literally, the second time. I know there are some who are labouring to get rid of the fact of a personal reign, but as I take it, the coming and the reign are so connected together, that we must have a spiritual coming if we are to have a spiritual reign. Now we believe and hold that Christ shall come a second time suddenly, to raise his saints at the first judgment, and they shall reign with him afterwards. The rest of the dead live not till after the thousand years are finished. Then shall they rise from their tombs at the sounding of the trumpet, and their judgment shall come and they shall receive the deeds which they have done in their bodies." [from The Two Advents of Christ MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pg. 39, Hebrews 9:27-28 (age 28)]

[from The Sinner's End MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pgs. 712-713, Psalms 73:17-18 (age 28)], Spurgeon is discussing the final condition of the sinner — "Let us go on to consider their end. The day of days, that dreadful day has come. The millennial rest is over, the righteous have had their thousand years of glory upon earth."

In the quotes above, the order of events fits perfectly the PREmillennial point of view. The final end of the sinner is faced after the righteous have enjoyed a thousand years with Christ.

.
	"Our Hope is the Personal PRE-MILLENNIAL RETURN of the   Lord Jesus Christ in Glory."
	— August 1891, age 58

Of the various articles and writings by those who deny the conclusion that we feel is obvious, none that I have found bases itself on the same type of quotes we have produced (many others could have been given — see those that follow). To the contrary, their's are based on "interpreting" Spurgeon's statements apart from such quotes that we have given.

.

We feel safe in concluding, then,

that of the three views we began with,

Spurgeon expressly states that he believes in a

Literal Return of Jesus Christ

BEFORE

a Literal Millennium on the Earth.

———————————————————————————

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Written by Mark A. McNeil (Houston TX USA), B.A., M.A., & PhD. Student

Author of An Evaluation of the 'Oneness Pentecostal' Movement

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NOTES OF INTEREST

Watching and Waiting Magazine

                                          by C. W. H. Griffiths

Published by Sovereign Grace Advent Testimony

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From the Summer 1990 issue of this magazine, C. W. H. Griffiths states Spurgeon "was a valued standard bearer for historic Pre-millennialism," and then presents an excellent article defending his Pre-millennial position.

Documenting additional quotations which we have added and expanded below —

Spurgeon (age 43) — There is moreover to be a reign of Christ. I cannot read the Scriptures without perceiving that there is to be a pre-millennial reign, as I believe, upon the earth and that there shall be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness...

Spurgeon (age 49) — Then all His people who are alive at the time of His coming shall be suddenly transformed, so as to be delivered from all the frailties and imperfections of their mortal bodies: The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. Then we shall be presented spirit, soul, and body without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; in the clear and absolute perfection of our sanctified manhood, presented unto Christ Himself.

Spurgeon (age 50) — When the Lord comes there will be no more death; we who are alive and remain (as some of us may be — we cannot tell) will undergo a sudden transformation — for flesh and blood, as they are, cannot inherit the kingdom of God — and by that transformation our bodies shall be made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.

Spurgeon (age 52) — His coming will cause great sorrow. What does the text say about his coming? All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Then this sorrow will be very general.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pgs. 427-430, Ezekiel  37:1-10] — Under the preaching of the Word the vilest sinners can be reclaimed, the most stubborn wills can be subdued, the most unholy lives can be sanctified. When the holy "breath" comes from the four winds, when the divine Spirit descends to own the Word, then multitudes of sinners, as on Pentecost's hallowed day, stand up upon their feet, an exceeding great army, to praise the Lord their God. But, mark you, this is not the first and proper interpretation of the text; it is indeed nothing more than a very striking parallel case to the one before us. It is not the case itself; it is only a similar one, for the way in which God restores a nation is, practically, the way in which he restores an individual. The way in which Israel shall be saved is the same by which any one individual sinner shall be saved. It is not, however, the one case which the prophet is aiming at; he is looking at the vast mass of cases, the multitudes of instances to be found among the Jewish people, of gracious quickening, and holy resurrection. His first and primary intention was to speak of them, and though it is right and lawful to take a passage in its widest possible meaning, since "no Scripture is of private interpretation," yet I hold it to be treason to God's Word to neglect its primary meaning, and constantly to say — "Such-and-such is the primary meaning, but it is of no consequence, and I shall use the words for another object." The preacher of God's truth should not give up the Holy Ghost's meaning; he should take care that he does not even put it in the back ground. The first meaning of a text, the Spirit's meaning, is that which would be brought out first, and though the rest may fairly spring out of it, yet the first sense should have the chief place. Let it have the uppermost place in the synagogue, let it be looked upon as at least not inferior, either in interest or importance, to any other meaning which may come out of the text.

The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality; and then, secondly, there is in the text, and in the context, a most plain declaration, that there shall be a spiritual restoration, a conversion in fact, of the tribes of Israel.

The promise is that they shall renounce their idols, and, behold, they have already done so. "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols." Whatever faults the Jew may have besides, he certainly has no idolatry. "The Lord thy God is one God," is a truth far better conceived by the Jew than by any other man on earth except the Christian. Weaned for ever from the worship of all images, of whatever sort, the Jewish nation has now become infatuated with traditions or duped by philosophy. She is to have, however, instead of these delusions, a spiritual religion: she is to love her God. "They shall be my people, and I will be their God." The unseen but omnipotent Jehovah is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth by his ancient people; they are to come before him in his own appointed way, accepting the Mediator whom their sires rejected; coming into covenant relation with God, for so our text tells us — "I will make a covenant of peace with them," and Jesus is our peace, therefore we gather that Jehovah shall enter into the covenant of grace with them, that covenant of which Christ is the federal head, the substance, and the surety. They are to walk in God's ordinances and statutes, and so exhibit the practical effects of being united to Christ who hath given them peace. All these promises certainly imply that the people of Israel are to be converted to God, and that this conversion is to be permanent, for the tabernacle of God is to be with them, the Most High is, in an especial manner, to have his sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore; so that whatever nations may apostatize and turn from the Lord in these latter days, the nation of Israel never can, for she shall be effectually and permanently converted, the hearts of the fathers shall be turned with the hearts of the children unto the Lord their God, and they shall be the people of God, world without end.

We look forward, then, for these two things. I am not going to theorize upon which of them will come first, whether they shall be restored first, and converted afterwards, or converted first, and then restored. They are to be restored, and they are to be converted too. Let the Lord send these blessings in his own order, and we shall be well content whichever way they shall come. We take this for our joy and our comfort, that this thing shall be, and that both in the spiritual and in the temporal throne, the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Lamb — the Light MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 439, Revelation 21:23] — (Spurgeon says of the millennial earth), They shall not say one to another, "Know the Lord: for all shall know him, from the least to the greatest." There may be even in that period certain solemn assemblies and Sabbath-days, but they will not be of the same kind as we have now; for the whole earth will be a temple, every day will be a Sabbath, the avocations of men will all be priestly, they shall be a nation of priests — distinctly so, and they shall day without night serve God in his temple, so that everything to which they set their hand shall be a part of the song which shall go up to the Most High. Oh! blessed day. Would God it had dawned, when these temples should be left, because the whole world should be a temple for God. But whatever may be the splendours of that day — and truly here is a temptation to let our imagination revel — however bright may be the walls set with chalcedony and amethyst, however splendid the gates which are of one pearl, whatever may be the magnificence set forth by the "streets of gold," this we know, that the sum and substance, the light and glory of the whole will be the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, "for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Now, I want the Christian to meditate over this. In the highest, holiest, and happiest era that shall ever dawn upon this poor earth, Christ is to be her light. When she puts on her wedding garments, and adorns herself as a bride is adorned with jewels, Christ is to be her glory and her beauty. There shall be no ear-rings in her ears made with other gold than that which cometh from his mine of love; there shall be no crown set upon her brow fashioned by any other hand than his hands of wisdom and of grace. She sits to reign, but it shall be upon his throne; she feeds, but it shall be upon his bread; she triumphs, but it shall be because of the might which ever belongs to him who is the Rock of Ages. Come then, Christian, contemplate for a moment thy beloved Lord. Jesus, in a millennial age, shall be the light and the glory of the city of the new Jerusalem. Observe then, that Jesus makes the light of the millennium, because his presence will be that which distinguishes that age from the present. That age is to be akin to paradise. Paradise God first made upon earth, and paradise God will last make. Satan destroyed it; and God will never have defeated his enemy until he has re-established paradise, until once again a new Eden shall bless the eyes of God's creatures. Now, the very glory and privilege of Eden I take to be not the river which flowed through it with its four branches, nor that it came from the land of Havilah which hath dust of gold — I do not think the glory of Eden lay in its grassy walks, or in the boughs bending with luscious fruit — but its glory lay in this, that the "Lord God walked in the garden in the cool of the day." Here was Adam's highest privilege, that he had companionship with the Most High. In those days angels sweetly sang that the tabernacle of God was with man, and that he did dwell amongst them. Brethren, the paradise which is to be regained for us will have this for its essential and distinguishing mark, that the Lord shall dwell amongst us. This is the name by which the city is to be called — Jehovah Shammah, the Lord is there. It is true we have the presence of Christ in the Church now — "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." We have the promise of his constant indwelling: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." But still that is vicariously by his Spirit, but soon he is to be personally with us. That very man who once died upon Calvary is to live here. He — that same Jesus — who was taken up from us, shall come in like manner as he was taken up from the gazers of Galilee. Rejoice, rejoice, beloved, that he comes, actually and really comes; and this shall be the joy of that age, that he is among his saints, and dwelleth in them, with them, and talketh and walketh in their midst.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

[xzins]

It wasn't long before one of the Pharisee-wanna-be Freepers posted a prayer request asking for prayers for SecondPerson's family. They said that they heard that he had been double-crossed by one he thought was his friend who had turned him in to the authorities on trumped up charges, gave false testimony about him at his trial, and before anyone could turn around, he was quickly executed on the same day as a couple of other criminals were.

Executed quickly????????????????????????????????????????

[Matchett-PI]

"See also Eph 1:18-2:7. Paul was definitely not saying that our physical bodies are already seated with Christ in heaven."

"But he definitely was saying that our spiritual persons are already seated with Christ in heaven."

Bump for "The First Resurrection" and the millennial reign of Christ and the beheaded saints whose head is no longer Satan --- the god of THIS world!!!!!

[RnMomof7]

Look at Eph 2: Paul tells us in vs 4,5: "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;);"

Jean..I did pass from death to life...no one is disputing that ...the dispute lays in the reign of Christ on earth...not that eternity began for each of us on the day of our rebirth

You are setting up straw men..

Jean why would John need a vision of a place he was already at? Revelation is written for believers not the unsaved...why would they need to know these things if they had already occurred ??? What are we watching for Jean??

[xzins]

Revelation is written for believers not the unsaved...why would they need to know these things if they had already occurred ??? What are we watching for Jean??

Exactly, Rn!!

And, Jean, what about the question that you didn't answer about the early church.

You and I have BOTH of us demonstrated the existence of PREMILLENNIALISM in the earliest church.

You have not demonstrated the existence of AMILLENNIALISM in the earliest church.

It only comes about when allegorical Origen comes on the scene. Not a peep about it before then. And even then, it is only the hint of how Origen is trying to account for the fact that Christ hasn't yet returned....that is, it is born out of despair.

[CCWoody]

Do you deny you said it "is the gospel"?Is the pre mil position the gospel?

Of course, we both agree that, as Jesus talked a lot about the end, either PreMillennialism is correct or the Realized Millennialism is correct. Both can't be correct and an entire group of believers is under a very real Satanic deception about what is called our blessed hope.

How bout chapters??Peter 3, Rev 20....

Of course, I'd rather not change the plain meaning of the gospel based upon a few references in a single place in the whole Bible of a thousand years. It seems strange that the gospel should be sealed even for believers to understand.

[fortheDeclaration]

Wow, talk about a reaction!

[nobdysfool]

Your final paragraph is interesting for the position which you are taking, a position which is primarily federal in nature. I think you might want to consider an alternative viewpoint for the doctrine of original sin--one which is not primarily federal (if federal at all). I will try to dig up some links for you when I get a chance.

Actually, believe it or not, I do not hold to the federalist view at all. As I see it, the federal view sees us as "represented" by Christ on the cross, and then applies that view backward to seeing Adam as a "representative" of the human race with regard to sin. That's backward reasoning. In reality, by faith we are "in" Christ when He was on the cross, "in" Christ when He died, and "in" Christ when He rose from the dead. We were all (at least in potential form) literally in Adam when he sinned. If we had some of Adam's DNA, every person now living, or who ever lived could be traced back to Adam genetically. There was no "representation" of us by him, we were IN him.

As you said earlier, the rule of first mention in scripture is important. If we see properly the reality of how we came to be as we were, then it gives us a clue as to how God accomplished our redemption, and therefore a clearer picture of our union with Christ, and the benefits inherent thereto. When I say that there is a legal component in how this was done, that doesn't mean I hold to a federal interpretation. It simply means that there is a logical, clear-cut and simple explanation. When Paul says we have passed from death into life, he is referring to the totally legal way we entered into union with Christ (by faith), and were put beyond the reach of the penalty for sin, being reckoned dead with Christ as far as sin and its penalty can reach, and alive unto righteousness, having been freed from the law of sin and death and raised with Christ. That's the significance of Baptism. It is an acting out of our very real death to sin in Christ, and resurrection unto righteousness in Christ. As it is an individual transaction for each of us, it cannot be federal, i.e. done by representation. Otherwise, God could thereby save everyone without any action on their part. God did it in a way that would hold up in any court of law, should it ever be put on trial. It is a logical, clear transaction made by Christ, consumated by faith, and borne out by the changed lives as result of faith in Christ.

We entered into union with Christ upon believing in His Gospel, and that caused us to be cleansed from sin, reckoned dead to sin and its penalty, and regenerated in our spirit to be alive unto righteousness, and therefore free from condemnation. The law and its penalty for disobedience has no authority over a dead man, as death is the maximum penalty the law can impose. Since Jesus paid that penalty with a sinless life, if we are united with Him, we also accrue the same positon He did, both with regard to the penalty for sin, and the resurrection unto life. We were united with Adam in sin and death, and are now united with Christ in life and righteousness.

[nobdysfool]

But he definitely was saying that our spiritual persons are already seated with Christ in heaven

I would differ with you on that. We are seated with Christ in the heavenlies because we are IN HIM, which means that we are where He is with regard to our union with Him. We are obviously still here. It remains a future event for us to be in actuality, i.e. physically seated with Christ in the heavenlies. 1 Cor 6:17 "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." That refers to our union with Christ, in our spirit.

It's not exactly right to use the term "spirtitual" as a way of getting around contradictions or to explain something not understood. When the term "spiritual" is used as a euphemism for "I don't know exactly how this works", nothing is really extablished or proven. I've seen that word used by many on this thread, sometimes with justification, and sometimes not. I'm not singling anyone out, just saying that we need to be careful that we don't use that term as a way of solving "problems" with interpretation.

[RnMomof7]

Of course, we both agree that, as Jesus talked a lot about the end, either PreMillennialism is correct or the Realized Millennialism is correct. Both can't be correct and an entire group of believers is under a very real Satanic deception about what is called our blessed hope.

Now here is the problem Woody..IF amil is correct and IT is the gospel that makes the premil gospel a false Gospel...can a false gospel save Woody??? Do I believe a false gospel Woody? What about Jerry ? What about Dr Steve? what about Ditto?...Do we all believe a FALSE gospel?

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Are We accursed?

[CCWoody]

It simply makes one of our gospels incomplete or confused with regard to what Jesus said about His coming.

[RnMomof7]

How bout chapters??Peter 3, Rev 20....
Of course, I'd rather not change the plain meaning of the gospel based upon a few references in a single place in the whole Bible of a thousand years. It seems strange that the gospel should be sealed even for believers to understand.

The early church was pre mil Woody...yes they were....Woody why do you call me "sister"?

[CCWoody]

Some of the Church was PreMill. But the Apostles preached Christ the reigning King, not just Christ the risen Lord. I call you a sister because you are my sister. You really have a need to take a few breaths and realize that nobody here has challenged your salvation or called you a "spiritual whore".

[RnMomof7]

It simply makes one of our gospels incomplete or confused with regard to what Jesus said about His coming.

No Woody you said it IS the gospel..that would mean that we have a gospel that is a lie...we would have a false gospel and be lost...it would not be simply "incomplete"..it would mean we and every Armenian (in your church) that believe in the pre trib is lost (including your Pastor)

So I ask you again Woody Is the AMIL the only TRUE gospel..are Dr Steve and Jerry and ditto and I and your Pastor and your church elders lost?

[RnMomof7]

Woody every time you assert you have the true Gospel you assert that all other Chrisitans are lost..there is only ONE gospel..ONE..I assert it is as I posted above and does not inculde a litmus test on the millenium ..

I do not claim that the pre mil is the TRUE Gospel..I believe that the gospel is the kingdom of God is at hand..and the Kingdom os God is within you...now if you read the chart I posted you will see that is something Historic premils believe..by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God in a way that is a mystery to us ...it is true..

[CCWoody]

No, sister, I have never said that Amil is the gospel. I have quoted the gospel and simply asked you which eschatological view this resembles.

As for all those Armenians in my church; I don't think that our church has a gospel outreach to any of these people, but we have a group of missionaries leaving for Austria on Wednesday. Globally, that is pretty close. ;-)

As far as my pastor is concerned; all he has ever said to me about the Day of the Lord is that Jesus is coming back. Though, I strongly suspect, from what he has said that he believes a pretrib Rapture is baloney. Perhaps he recognizes that getting one's eschatology right is important to preaching the fulness of the gospel.

[the_doc]

As I mentioned earlier, I have tracked down the links presenting my own arguments for what has been called “realistic theology” in the doctrine of original sin.

The links are:

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b0877083d3c.htm (see posts 122, 126, 127, 132, 139, 144, 148, 155, 159, 180, and 181); and

and http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b14f3536511.htm (see posts 40, 46, 57, 80, 98, 109, 113, 114, 193, 206, 211, 213, 219, and 223).

[RnMomof7]

No, sister, I have never said that Amil is the gospel. I have quoted the gospel and simply asked you which eschatological view this resembles.

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Well, I'm not certain that I can give you the amil answer. I can give you this and perhaps OP will be along soon to confirm if this is the amil answer. Remember that my eschatology is nearly solely derived from a correct understanding of the gospel of the kingdom of God
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the hour is coming in which all who are in the graces will hear His voice and come forth..." ~ basic gospel stuff from the Mouth of the Lord Jesus Himself. Would you like to call this a circular argument yet one more time?
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Yeah, I believe at least a dozen verses cited in my response! Basic gospel stuff!

Do you believe the gospel? John calls the first resurrection something different than what you do. John says that the resurrection of life has already begun! Do you believe this?…. This is simple gospel stuff, and you are missing it
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As a Real Millennialist, I still wait for the coming of the Lord at the end of this age and Him casting all things that offend into the furnace of fire at the end of this age (Matthew 13). Simple gospel stuff!
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Good grief, are you actually calling the gospel itself a Circular argument or are you actually saying that what I have posted is not a part of the gospel?
P.S. I'm actually somewhat amused that you don't even recognize that what I have posted is found in almost the identical words in the gospels. It should tell you something about how your eschatology has blinded you to the gospel.
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The Lord Jesus ~ My kingdom is not of this world Basic gospel stuff!
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Now Woody there are LOTS more where these came from ..the most interesting is in blue..have you asked your Pastor if he is blind to the gospel?? The truth is you do not want to know what he believes that is why you have never asked..is your Pastor blind to the gospel??

Woody I do not mean to be unkind or to be confrontive..but you have consistantly presented the view of amil as THE GOSPEL there can only be ONE gospel...You have said that amil is the gospel..I ask you again are Pastor Jerry, Pastor Dr Steve, Dittojed2; and I lost? Is the bound satan deceiving us into believeing we are saved??

[RnMomof7]

Though, I strongly suspect, from what he has said that he believes a pretrib Rapture is baloney. Perhaps he recognizes that getting one's eschatology right is important to preaching the fulness of the gospel.

If you bothered to read the posts you would know that historic premmils do not believe in a pretrib rapture

So does Pastor Jerry and Steve not preach the fullness of the Gospel? Is your Pastor a Calvinist...just what is correct teaching?

Can a man that is pre trib be saved?

[CCWoody]

Woody I do not mean to be unkind or to be confrontive..but you have consistantly presented the view of amil as THE GOSPEL there can only be ONE gospel...

No, I have consistently presented the gospel view of the end as the gospel. As I have said to you, I'm not particularly concerned which eschatological position this is. The gospel is the correct one.

BTW, what I posted to BigMack was a word for word quote of John 5:28-29 and he called that a circular argument and spin. So, yes, he has allowed his eschatology to blind his eyes to recognize the gospel truths. You are free to ping him, but his name is so long, who can remember how to spell it?

[CCWoody]

Of course, a man that is preTrib can be saved. However, a man that is preTrib can also deceive someone into thinking that he will believe when the saints are gone and he will use his 7 years. So, in this sense, the preTrib eschatology can be presented as a false gospel.