Catholic Caucus: Daily Mass Readings, 8-15-02, Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary

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[Salvation]

August 15, 2002
Solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Psalm: Thursday Week 36 Reading I Responsorial Psalm Reading II Gospel

Reading I
Rv 11:19a; 12:1-6a, 10ab

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun,
with the moon beneath her feet,
and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.
Then another sign appeared in the sky;
it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns,
and on its heads were seven diadems.
Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky
and hurled them down to the earth.
Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth,
to devour her child when she gave birth.
She gave birth to a son, a male child,
destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.
Her child was caught up to God and his throne.
The woman herself fled into the desert
where she had a place prepared by God.

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have salvation and power come,
and the kingdom of our God
and the authority of his Anointed One."

Responsorial Psalm
Ps 45:10, 11, 12, 16

R. (10bc) The queen stands at your right hand, arrayed in gold.
The queen takes her place at your right hand in gold of Ophir.
R. The queen stands at your right hand, arrayed in gold.
Hear, O daughter, and see; turn your ear,
forget your people and your father's house.
R. The queen stands at your right hand, arrayed in gold.
So shall the king desire your beauty;
for he is your lord.
R. The queen stands at your right hand, arrayed in gold.
They are borne in with gladness and joy;
they enter the palace of the king.
R. The queen stands at your right hand, arrayed in gold.

Reading II
1 Cor 15:20-27

Brothers and sisters:
Christ has been raised from the dead,
the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since death came through man,
the resurrection of the dead came also through man.
For just as in Adam all die,
so too in Christ shall all be brought to life,
but each one in proper order:
Christ the firstfruits;
then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ;
then comes the end,
when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father,
when he has destroyed every sovereignty
and every authority and power.
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
The last enemy to be destroyed is death,
for "he subjected everything under his feet."

Gospel
Lk 1:39-56

Mary set out
and traveled to the hill country in haste
to a town of Judah,
where she entered the house of Zechariah
and greeted Elizabeth.
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting,
the infant leaped in her womb,
and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit,
cried out in a loud voice and said,
"Blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
And how does this happen to me,
that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears,
the infant in my womb leaped for joy.
Blessed are you who believed
that what was spoken to you by the Lord
would be fulfilled."

And Mary said:
"My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
for he has looked upon his lowly servant.
From this day all generations will call me blessed:
the Almighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his Name.
He has mercy on those who fear him
in every generation.
He has shown the strength of his arm,
and has scattered the proud in their conceit.
He has cast down the mighty from their thrones,
and has lifted up the lowly.
He has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent away empty.
He has come to the help of his servant Israel
for he has remembered his promise of mercy,
the promise he made to our fathers,
to Abraham and his children for ever."

Mary remained with her about three months
and then returned to her home.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

No other woman is prominant in the New Testament. To have this kind of faith is mind-boggling

What about the woman with the issue of blood that believed if she just touched Jesus' robe she would be healed?

What about the woman who gave her two mites in the temple.

What about Mary Magdelan, Mary and Martha.

What did Jesus have to say about all these women?

Just asking:)

Catholics always misunderstand "Protestants", it is not that we don't think of Mary as a blessed woman, it is just that she is a woman, and in the human sense no different than every other woman in that she as a sinner and needed a savior as all of us do and that she died as all of us will as the bible points out. We NEVER intend any disrespect towards her when thinking of her this way.

I have been convinced on The Neverending Story thread that the RCC does not teach to worship Mary it is just that some of your beliefs and traditions about Mary IMO, border on worship, and that alot of catholics who are not up on cathlic theology are probably confused about what is worship and what is not concerning Mary.

Becky

[Desdemona]

"And when the sources you study are at odds with each other ... ?"

It seems that most here are guilty of having a theory or hypethesis and seeking to prove it true. When one writes a thesis, one seeks to prove a point and seeks sources to defend that point and excludes sources that would disprove it. (On this forum that is done daily.) To Catholics, the sources are infinite; to non-Catholics, there, usually, is only one. By eliminating all but one material source, one limits the extent of knowledge and understanding - and thus deeper and more thorough thought.

That's part of the beauty of discussion, a deeper, more thorough understanding which can lead contemplation down all sorts of paths. By comparing and contrasting the sources, sometimes truth reveals itself. Not all sources are going to agree. The trick is to gleen the truth from the mess of multiple accounts and opinions.

As to Mary's mediation, if one limits source material to the New Testament as it stands now, 1600 years after it was organized out of material multiple times it's size and content, her place as one of many who act for God and His Son would, yes, be questionable.

[Desdemona]

"What about the woman with the issue of blood that believed if she just touched Jesus' robe she would be healed?

What about the woman who gave her two mites in the temple.

What about Mary Magdelan, Mary and Martha.

What did Jesus have to say about all these women?"

What about these women? With the exception of Mary Magdelan, and to an extent Martha, they are each examples of great believers, not main characters or actors or players in the story. Christ had some wonderful things to say about these women, but none had a mother's priviledge the way Mary does and none appears as often.

And, yes, I do believe that Mary was conceived specifically to be the vessel to bring Jesus into the world. You don't think God would just choose anyone.

As for worship, just, please, don't go there.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Scripture explicitly says NO SUCH THING. The passages in 2 Thess. to which you refer tell the churches to hold fast to the teachings that have been passed to them by Paul and company. Likewise with 1 Cor. Nowhere does that say explicitly that sacred tradition is to be followed in the manner which we're discussing.

Sorry but that's not the way Scripture is written. Perhaps you are relying on a corrupted text. Peter warned against incorrect interpretation of Scripture in 2 Peter 3:16-17. In 2 Thessalonians Paul explicitly writes of traditions which we have learned by either word or epistle and to distance ourselves from those not adhering to Tradition. He also exhorts us to keep his ordinances as he has delivered them in 1 Corinthians. John 21:25 reminds us that not everything Jesus did is recorded.

Can you point to that passage in Scripture which states Scripture alone? Can you point to where Scripture and Tradition are at odds over the Assumption of the Blessed Mother? Can you point to that passage in Scripture that speaks of the death of the Blessed Virgin Mary or the deaths of any of the Apostles save Judas? I'll rely on uncorrupted Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic authority of the Church which Christ left to teach, govern and sanctify in His name until the end of time and the Fathers of the Church rather than a group of malcontents inventing their own doctrine(s) to suit their own agenda(s) 14+ centuries after the fact. You are free to do as you will.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

As for worship, just, please, don't go there.

I wasn't going there. If you read my post I said the RCC "doesn't" teach that. I was defending you guys on that issue. Your "defensivism" about this topic speaks loudly about this issue. Are you uncomfortable with the way your church handles it. The reason I repsoned at all was because of the way salvation referred to "Protest-ant's." You seemed to second the remark. I should have addressed my first response to both of you

I am not insulting you, I am trying to clear up the misconceptions you stated about "Protestant" attitude toward Mary. Absolutly no insult intended as my original post was clear on if you weren't looking for an insult:)

Becky

[ELS]

I think the protestants are confused by our veneration of Mary because it is similar to their worship of God. There is a vast difference between the way Catholics worship God in the Mass and how Catholics venerate Mary. No Catholic thinks that the Eucharist/Real Presence is Mary. Since Protestants, in general, don't believe in the Real Presence, one can understand how they have a hard time differentiating between the worship of God and the veneration of Mary by Catholics.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I think the protestants are confused by our veneration of Mary because it is similar to their worship of God.

And I think catholics are confused about the attitude that "Prostestants" have toward Mary. They always seem to take our beliefs about her as that we do not consider her blessed, and that we are being derogatory towards her, which is the farthest thing from the truth there is.

Becky

[Desdemona]

"I think the protestants are confused by our veneration of Mary because it is similar to their worship of God."

After I posted, I thought about this. The difference between worship and veneration. If you don't know the difference, I guess it's hard to tell.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

she died as all of us will as the bible points out.

Can you provide the Scriptural reference for the death of the Blessed Virgin Mary? Incidentally, Elijah and Enoch did not die so you need to amend your absolute "all".

We NEVER intend any disrespect towards her when thinking of her this way.

You obviously haven't read the works of a number of Protestants.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Heb.9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement.

IMO, any exceptions to this, such as Elisha and Enoch, would be noted in scripture. I know, I know, that is just the Protestant intrepratation:), I am not trying to dissuade you of your belief of Mary's assumption, just of your beliefs that Protestants do not have the proper respect for her.

As far as my reading other Protestants works about her, they obviously have not participated and read the catholic posts on The Neverending Story:) about veneration and worship. Really I have been convinced that the RCC does not teach worship of Mary.

Becky

[Salvation]

I think the protestants are confused by our veneration of Mary because it is similar to their worship of God. There is a vast difference between the way Catholics worship God in the Mass and how Catholics venerate Mary. No Catholic thinks that the Eucharist/Real Presence is Mary. Since Protestants, in general, don't believe in the Real Presence, one can understand how they have a hard time differentiating between the worship of God and the veneration of Mary by Catholics.

Good point!

[Salvation]

From this day all generations will call me blessed:
the Almighty has done great things for me,

So are you saying that this line in the Bible is false? It is my belief that many Protestant call Mary "Blessed" also, for exactly this reason--this quote from the Bible.

[Desdemona]

Sal, not me. The Blessed part should be a given and completely understood. That it's not is a form of denial. A very willful denial.

Maybe I just spend too much time around protestants.

[Salvation]

Des, I should have made some mention to you when I posted it that I was copying the comment to you.

I was addressing Becky directly, not you. Sorry, forgive me please.
Salvation

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Why do you think I don't think Mary is blessed, when in fact in an earlier post I said I do consider her blessed. Just because someone is blessed would not necessarily mean they would not die. Are you just wanting to argue. I personally have acknowledged that I have changed my thoughts on what the RCC teaches about Mary, that you do not worship her. Can you show me the same respect and not call me a Protest-ant, or say that I do not consider Mary a blessed person. What's the deal here. Is all I can figure is you are defensive on this issue because you know there is something to be defensive about.

Becky

[Jael]

WHo is the Queen of Heaven?