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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Jesus Christ specifically said that God had the alternative of performing Miracles in Sodom, and that God's choice whether or not to perform Miracles was NOT determined by Sodom's choice to repent or not, but in fact God's choice (to Perform miracles, or to Not Perform miracles) had the effect of pre-determining what Sodom's choice would be (to Repent, or to Not Repent).

You are really jumping off the deep end here. Jesus says nothing of the sort. It is you who are impregnating this verse with so much of your own meaning, certainly not Jesus.

I insist that you are starting from a false premise. Jesus is simply stating a logical causality in the form of a traditional Jewish judgement oracle. It is not about Jesus speaking "Truth" or a "Falsehood". He is simply using his (human) reason to provide an illustration for a point He is making.

If you cannot establish that Jesus was omniscient in this verse, with divine aftknowledge and foreknowledge (and you cannot) then your whole argument falls flat (and it does). And, because you cannot move on from this false start, everything you say after this is meaningless.

335 posted on 08/11/2002 1:36:32 PM PDT by ponyespresso
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To: ponyespresso
oops, forgot my one-liner again.

I have a microwave fireplace. I can have a quiet evening in eight minutes -Steven Wright

336 posted on 08/11/2002 1:40:19 PM PDT by ponyespresso
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To: ponyespresso
If you cannot establish that Jesus was omniscient in this verse, with divine aftknowledge and foreknowledge (and you cannot) then your whole argument falls flat (and it does). And, because you cannot move on from this false start, everything you say after this is meaningless.

Nope. As I said before (a point which you have singularly failed to answer) I don't even have to concern myself with the economy of Jesus' incommunicable attributes (omniscience, omnipotence, etc.) during the Incarnation to know that the Father would guard His mouth from speaking error. Do you honestly believe that Jesus ever uttered a statement which was, in its factual particulars, FALSE?? Even if we discount Omniscience in the context of the Mysteries of the Incarnation, do you believe that the Father would permit Jesus to utter a Statement which was, in its factual particulars, FALSE??

"If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day."

You are beginning to grasp at straws as you realize that in order to deny Absolute Predestination, you have to call Jesus a Liar. Now, you very much want to deny Absolute Predestination, but you do not want to directly expose yourself by actually Calling Him a liar. So, it becomes necessary to imagine scenarios in which you can claim that what Jesus said was FACTUALLY FALSE, but without directly and specifically calling Him a Liar.

It won't work, of course. You'll be hoisted upon your own petard every time.


It is as I have said --- Do you honestly believe that the Father would permit Jesus to utter a Statement which was, in its factual particulars, FALSE??

"If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day."

Choose this day whom you will serve -- Christianity, or Human Synergism. For these two religions are mortal enemies, and always have been. The former is the pure worship of God, the latter is quite demonstrably Satanic.

339 posted on 08/11/2002 3:05:42 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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