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If we limit God to our time experience, God’s knowledge of the future can only be seen as omniscient prediction or total sovereign control.

Well... duh.

And what is more, Jack -- if God is Omnitemporally cognizant of all possible Timestreams (including every foreordained/foreknown interaction of Providence and Will therein) and the ultimate Results thereof, and God chooses which One of an infinite number of omnitemporally foreknown Timestreams will actually be the One which He will Create... then God's knowledge of the future can only be seen as Total Sovereign Control from all eternity past.

A point which I have illustrated time and again:

Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

So, before all Creation...

God foreknew Tyre, Sidon and Sodom's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
God foreknew Tyre, Sidon and Sodom's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
God CHOSE NOT TO PERFORM these Miracles in Tyre, Sidon and Sodom, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance unto Damnation of Tyre, Sidon and Sodom -- just exactly as He foreknew would be the certain and determinate result of Creating this particular scenario.

"The Epistomological Impact" of an Omnitemporal Foreknowledge enjoyed by God prior to Creation has the unavoidable effect of rendering any sort of synergistic metaphysical construct absolutely impossible, and of rendering Absolute Monergistic Predestination the only possible Rational and Sane Theology.

Arminianism/Synergism could survive in an environment where God's foreknowledge was limited to our Timestream; at least they could claim that God simply foreknew our free choices and that His Plan is therefore conditioned on those foreknown Choices. But in an Omnitemporal Foreknowledge environment, Man's Choices are the purely-dependent consequent results of God's precedent Decisions -- If God decides that He will ordain to perform miracles in Sodom, then Sodom will choose to Repent when the Time comes; and if He decides that He will NOT ordain to perform miracles, then they will choose to NOT repent. Their decisions have, therefore, already been predestined for them before they are ever born, by God's determinative Election of just which Omnitemporally Foreknown time-stream He is going to Create.

Ergo, Omnitemporal Foreknowledge enjoyed prior to Creation has the unavoidable effect of rendering Absolute Monergistic Predestination the only possible Rational and Sane Theology. As I said before... duh.

Sheesh -- Jack Carter did not realize this logically-obvious impact of Omnitemporal Foreknowledge against any possible synergistic construct?

And he's a doctoral student??
(Do you think that any of his Professors know??)

Actually, the thrust of the article, that God exists outside of time and space from eternity, is the position that has always been taken by FR Calvinists.

God is not subject to the physical constraints of His own creation.

Moreover, most of what our physicists call time is no more than a measurement of motion. Even the ancient Buddhists knew this much. Inasmuch as the Bible deals with God's nature, I think the ancient Jews asserted the same principle despite their caution in writing on the topic.

Sheesh -- Jack Carter did not realize this logically-obvious impact of Omnitemporal Foreknowledge against any possible synergistic construct?

Yeah, I already told PM that the logical conclusion to this argument is Absolute Predestination.

can't believe I wasted time to even read it. BTW, if you take this argument to its logical conclusion, then you must become an Absolute Predestinarian. ~ CCWoody

Thank you so much for pinging me to this fascinating piece mom...I appreciate it.

CC, what are you talking about?? The article is saying that God knows what's going to happen over time because he's outside of time. He leaves our choices up to us but knows what those choices will be. We are predestined only in God's eyes because he sees past present and future.

Posted by DouglasKC to CCWoody; RnMomof7 On Religion Aug 7 11:13 PM #68 of 137

Douglas, I refer you to OP's excellent arguments. The only thing that is "fascinating" about this article is just how badly the author bumbled both his physics and his theology.

P.S. You may believe that God is merely a cosmic observer, but I happen to believe what the Bible says.

Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

So, before all Creation...

God foreknew Tyre, Sidon and Sodom's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
God foreknew Tyre, Sidon and Sodom's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
God CHOSE NOT TO PERFORM these Miracles in Tyre, Sidon and Sodom, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance unto Damnation of Tyre, Sidon and Sodom -- just exactly as He foreknew would be the certain and determinate result of Creating this particular scenario.

I've been on the sidelines for most of this, not wanting to get involved in some of the ugliness on this thread. However, I just have to ask this one question regarding the setup of this.

When Jesus was speaking here, wasn't Jesus simply using a typical judgement oracle that prophets have used throughout the Old Testament? Because I do not believe that He was speaking here with divine foreknowldge.

What I mean is, when Jesus was Incarnate, He had clothed Himself with man's nature; an ignorant and servile nature. Clearly passages such as Mark 13:32 confirm that Jesus did not possess divine forknowledge in specific, but in general Jesus was not omniscient as well. There are many passages in the Gospels where Jesus expresses surprise, or even asks questions that would suggest that He honestly does not know the answer. Even Jesus' prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem could easily be attributed to His (human) reasoning that if the Jews continued in the path they were taking, Rome would most certainly take some kind of action.

In regards to your argument as you present, you clearly cannot move from Jesus saying "If the miracles that were performed..." to establish that Jesus was speaking as God, omniscient and with divine foreknowledge. So, then, aren't you arguing from a false premise?