MAN OF THE SHROUD

Various ^ | August 2002

[NYer]

The Shroud of Turin is a centuries old linen cloth that bears the image of a crucified man. A man that millions believe to be Jesus of Nazareth. Is it really the cloth that wrapped his crucified body, or is it simply a medieval forgery, a hoax perpetrated by some clever artist? Modern, twentieth century science has completed hundreds of thousands of hours of detailed study and intense research on the Shroud. It is, in fact, the single most studied artifact in human history, and we know more about it today than we ever have before. And yet, the controversy still rages.

Arguments against the Shroud's authenticity are prima facia, supported by carbon 14 dating and a prevailing view of the way things are in the world. On the other hand, the case for authenticity is a compelling preponderance of scientific and historic evidence. So daunting is the evidence that we can only wonder if, as  postmodernists suggest, "no such thing as objective truth exists, that historic reality is an inherently enigmatic and endlessly negotiable bundle of free-floating perceptions."1 The alternative is to consider, as C. S. Lewis contends: rare exceptions to nature are possible. 

On this hot and sultry day in August, I decided to post this thread for those who enjoy mystery, adventure and the thrill of discovery. There are many web sites devoted to this topic. I suggest you begin here:

SHROUD OF TURIN

[HumanaeVitae]

Uh uh. You answer my question first. How does predestination work? Every point you've made has been refuted. Define predestination.

[RnMomof7]

But you probably don't understand the implications of this. In fact I'm sure I just wasted my time typing that, but FWIW. I won't even bother pulling out Karl Popper.

Do men chose based on self preservation? Do men chose based on their own survival?

    Rev 16:8   And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

     Rev 16:9   And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

     Rev 16:10   And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

     Rev 16:11   And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Here are men at the mercy of God...They see God, they see His justice..yet they curse and blaspheme Him. They chew their tongues off rather than repent and praise God

WHY?

What is the differeence between them and the saints?

[RnMomof7]

You do not have totally free will HV...You will is bound by your circumstances

HV most of us have been raised to worship at the altar of free will and choices

The fact is that all choices are made within a restricted set of circumstances

A man jumping off the empire state building can not exercise free will half way down.

Did you chose your sex? Did your chose your parents? Did you choose your country or city of birth? Did you chose your intelligence?

All of these things were predestined by your creator

He set up for you that parameters of the decisions and choices that will be available to you.

He could have had you born in India to Hindu parents in a low class. You never would have had an opportunity to go to school or to make the life choices you make today. You may never have heard the gospel to be saved.

Acts 17 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

All of our choices are governed by our preferences. Our preferences are part of that same creative process of the Father

Have you read the twin studies?

I read one that blew me away

Two brothers separated at birth. both had the same IQ, Both the same level of education, both loved firefighting (one was a professional and one a volunteer), both married women similar in appearance and both wives were named Jean. Both men had the same number of kids...and both drove red cars

Now these studies are done to show us the effects of genetics.

I know the designer of genetics. And His name is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. He is the great "I AM"

God has designed each of us in such a way that we will have preferences that will lead us to certain choices.

Because of the fall men will never seek God

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

In order for man to choose Christ he must have a preference for Christ. But the fall removed that preference. Man is spiritually dead.He can not choose life

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Note here that Jesus says a man cannot SEE the kingdom of God. Man can not desire or choose what he can not see

So God gives those that are His a New heart

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

God then gives us a heart that will desire Him.. A heart that can see Him and choose Him...

Our will was put in bondage in Eden. The will we have is the will of Adam. Only the new birth gives us a truly free will. The desire and the will to choose Christ

I find it so interesting that people resent the idea that God has foreordained our eternity. If our father so loved us to foreordain our present, how much more important is our eternity?

[HumanaeVitae]

RNMom, I mean this in all sincerity and hope that you'll give up this nonsense & see the light.

Debating you is a waste of my time. At least the atheists I debate on this site understand logic when they see it. Aquinas, a hero of mine, brought forth the idea that God gave man reason to know the world, and that faith was and is rational and intellectually defensible.

Apparently, you're having none of that. You have contradicted yourself over and over again. Predestination is the belief that salvation is prefigured in advance by God. Free will means that man can freely choose good and evil, and salvation as well. These ideas are mutually exclusive. Apparently you believe they can be reconciled. I can't help you here.

You seem nice, but from now on you're on ignore. If you can't see the point I've been making by now, I can't help you.

[Right To Life]

How does predestination work?

Simple. The Source Of Life is not bound by time, and can therefor see the fabric of the future woven by the freewill choices of humankind in the present.

[Right To Life]

The alternative is to consider, as C. S. Lewis contends: rare exceptions to nature are possible. 

Or there is a supernature, above, beyond, and superceding what is apparent to most.

[Right To Life]

The will we have is the will of Adam...

...and Eve!

[HumanaeVitae]

This is nothing more than warmed over determinism. True, we can't choose our circumstances. But we can choose between good and evil. The entire Anglo-American system of law is based on the idea that we can choose between good and evil.

You sound like a liberal here; "he couldn't control the fact that he axe murdered his whole family--it was his poor upbringing! He was bound to do it!"

If you want to know where soft-on-crime liberalism comes from, it comes from this kind of scientific materialism/determinism.

[RnMomof7]

Apparently, you're having none of that. You have contradicted yourself over and over again. Predestination is the belief that salvation is prefigured in advance by God. Free will means that man can freely choose good and evil, and salvation as well. These ideas are mutually exclusive. Apparently you believe they can be reconciled. I can't help you here.

You have no answers HV...all you have is opinions...I have tried to explain to you how Predestinaion and free will are both true...you can not handle it..you want to box and I am trying to explain...you have an unteachable spirit..that is not a good thing

[HumanaeVitae]

And you have an impermeable mind. That's the problem with the Reformation. The will of Man took over for the will of God. Every man to his own devices. And then use the NKJV to justify whatever whim they wished.

Again, if you believe that everything is figured out in advance but also believe that everything isn't figured out in advance, and you can't see that contradiction, then you are lost.

BTW, I'm not the one that needs teaching.

Ignore on.

[RnMomof7]

The fall caused man to be spirtiually dead...He can still make choices, but he can only choose between bad and worse. He is not capable of choosing "good'

     Rom 3:10   As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:   

  Rom 3:11   There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

     Rom 3:12   They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The problem is we compare our choices to the choices of other men..Jeffery Damler ate men. I do not eat men therefore I must be good

HV compared to a Holy God man can not choose good..He can just choose the less of two evils

Jhn 6:63   It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

[Right To Life]

The fall caused man to be spiritually dead...He can still make choices, but he can only choose between bad and worse. He is not capable of choosing "good'.

Not so. Were that the case, then to what end the Crucifixion and Resurrection?

Look into a baby's eyes and then claim that humankind is "spiritually dead"!

[RnMomof7]

Look into a baby's eyes and then claim that humankind is "spiritually dead"!

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

  Psa 51:5   Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me

Job 15:14   What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Isa 48:8   Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time [that] thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

[Right To Life]

Would you like to put any of those in context? Speakers? Situations?

[RnMomof7]

Genesis 8:21. "And the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Romans 3
10   As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11   There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12   They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13   Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14   Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15   Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16   Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17   And the way of peace have they not known:
18   There is no fear of God before their eyes.


It's really tough to look at the cutest, sweetest babies ever born and realize that, unless God powerfully intervenes in their lives, they are all headed straight for hellfire and damnation. But that is the truth. It is true because the spiritual relationship between God and man was cut off in that garden. When Adam sinned we all sinned. We are born sinners. We are so seperated from God that only His grace can save us.

[Jean Chauvin]

"It's not a silly argument at all."

Yes it is. A very similar argument is frequently made on Calvinism. This one involves missions. The argument, following your thinking, states that if God will saved all he 'predestined' from before the foundations of the world, then all who are chosen will be saved regardless of what any individual will do. If this is so, then missions are not necessary.

Just as your hypothetical situation is irrelevant, this is to. It is irrelevant simply because Calvinists historically have been leaders in missions. Goodness, 'anti' calvinists even grant us that one. (Look at the biography of George Whitefield sometime) My denomination and tradition has extensive missions. My aunt and uncle are missionaries in Nigeria. They have been for the past 35 years. While this seems to be the logical conclusion of predestination (missions are irrelevant) the fact that Calvinists have been at the forefront of missions is pie in the face of this charge.

In the same way, as I have explained before, your contention that 'christians can do whatever they want if they are predestined -they will be saved anyway' is bunk. It is bunk because it simply doesn't reflect true life Calvinists. Furthermore, this charge could be leveled at any who believe in 'Salvation by Grace Alone'. If Salavation is not of us, if it depends not 'on what we do', then we can do anything -so long as we accept the gospel of Christ. This 'argument' of yours could also apply to 'Arminian' Christians as well.

"First of all, few Christians believe in predestination."

More silliness. This is completely irrelevant! You are attempting to show that Calvinism is false because it is the minority position. This is the logical fallacy of the 'Appeal to Majority': using the fact that large numbers of people believe a proposition to be true (Calvinism is false) as evidence of its truth.

"Second of all, apparently you don't understand human nature. "

More silliness. I already explained to you that our natures and hearts are changed at our Regeneration. (Again, this is the true position of all who profess 'salvation by grace alone') Because our natures are changed. We no longer have our sinful nature. Thus 'human' nature does not apply to Regenerated Christians!

"Apparently you guys want to have it both ways. The doctrine of "predestination" and "free will". But you can't have both"

Sure we can. If God can be One God, yet be Three distinct Persons -Father, Son and Holy Spirit (a logical contradiction), if one can believe that God (the Son) became his created Creature (the incarnation) (and another logical contradiction), if one can believe that God created all that is out of absolutely nothing at all -no matter, no energy, no scientific laws -nothing (and another logical contradiction), then the charge that one cannot believe in 'predestination' and 'free-will' at the same time is pure silliness.

Jean

[Right To Life]

It's really tough to look at the cutest, sweetest babies ever born and realize that, unless God powerfully intervenes in their lives, they are all headed straight for hellfire and damnation. But that is the truth. It is true because the spiritual relationship between God and man was cut off in that garden.

It is so sad that many believe such fallacies.

What you have written is false.

Any entity that would condemn innocent babies to "hellfire and damnation" is not God, but Devil.

[HumanaeVitae]

"Just as your hypothetical situation is irrelevant, this is to. It is irrelevant simply because Calvinists historically have been leaders in missions."

"In the same way, as I have explained before, your contention that 'christians can do whatever they want if they are predestined -they will be saved anyway' is bunk. It is bunk because it simply doesn't reflect true life Calvinists."

These two comments, and your hilariously unintentional refutation of your own position, convinces me that you are impervious to reason, just like your friend RNMom. If you want do discuss Scripture amongst yourselves, fine. But when you start trying to explain determinism vs. free will, then please forget about it. Try reading the Dialectic of Zeno or any of the quantum indeterminists. But, of course you won't, because all you need is the NKJV.

True, the Trinity is illogical, but that is God and God is not falsifiable so we take this on faith, which I accept. But here in the really real world things have to make sense.

I think I'll go back to debating atheists. At least they have the intellectual honesty to admit when they're contradicting themselves.

P.S., Re: your comment about 'predestination' and 'free will' both being true, please see Law of Non-Contradiction, The. It's by Aristotle.

[HumanaeVitae]

"Because our natures are changed. We no longer have our sinful nature. Thus 'human' nature does not apply to Regenerated Christians!"

Please send me your bank account number, a copy of your signature and a blank check. And, also, what's your daughter/sister doing tonight? Got a phone number? I have only the highest intentions! Trust me!

[Jean Chauvin]

"These two comments, and your hilariously unintentional refutation of your own position"

?????

Please explian how I refuted my own position. I cannot wait to hear this!

"But, of course you won't, because all you need is the NKJV."

For the second time, what is behind the comments about the NKJV? I don't get it.

"True, the Trinity is illogical, but that is God and God is not falsifiable so we take this on faith, which I accept. But here in the really real world things have to make sense. "

ROTFLMAO!!!!

God is not 'really real'????? I don't follow you here.

"P.S., Re: your comment about 'predestination' and 'free will' both being true, please see Law of Non-Contradiction, The. It's by Aristotle."

First, Aristotle was not a Christian. He was a bright guy, but not a Christian. He didn't base the Truth from the Scriptures. He's no more authoritive to ultimate truth than is Adolph Hitler.

Second, That 'God is One Being' and 'God is Three Distinct Persons' at the same time is also contrary to 'Law of Non-Contradiction, The'. That God created all there is (the physical universe and the spiritual world) out of nothing at all (no matter/no energy/no scientific laws ...) is also contrary to 'Law of Non-Contradiction, The'. Your point is????

Jean