Posted on 07/31/2002 12:36:33 PM PDT by JMJ333
You thought a man was named Becky:)
Actually my husband (Big Mack) started posting when we got a WebTV, when I started getting interested inposting we found out that the WebTV would not support two e-mails so we had to share the name.
For a long time we did not let on that two people were posting under the same name, but one morning I got jumped on for something he said the night before, so I cleared the problem up:) It was fun.
As far as the rest of you post I'm not sure I follow.
Becky
In contrast to "religion", Christianity doesn't teach forcibly taking (stealing) from each according to his means and giving it to each according to his needs. But totalitarian Marxist/Socialist/Commie/tyrannical religions DO teach a forced redistribution of wealth, that is for sure. And they use the political power of secular governments to do it if they get the chance.
The voluntary sharing of wealth within individual families, and within individual church organizations, are the only legitimate forms of Socialism in God's eyes.
"Forced giving" is an oxymoron, and is breaking the commandments ("Thou shalt not steal", and "Thou shalt not covet what belongs to another", "Thou shalt love your neighbor as yourself", etc.).
Becky
The Catholics are coming, RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!! Hide your bible!! BOO!!!!!
Luther and Calvin had been indoctrinated by, and steeped in Roman catholicism all their lives. De-programming takes time."
ROFLOL!! Please!! This is such a lame excuse. They changed every other thing they could think of. THEY WERE NO BETTER. Both of them established STATE religions. That was the way things were done then. There was no penicillin either or novocaine or heart transplants. It was a different time.
"But God is patient, and as events unfolded, it is clear that he considered it more needful to reform his church back to the origional theological doctrines first."
Did you make this up in your head?
"As long as America's Constitution and Bill of Rights are upheld, we will have nothing to fear from tyrants who falsely teach their "faithful" that the infallible Word of God is a "dangerous" book, and refuses to retract its official denial of religious freedom and what it considers to be its right to use violence to force people to accept its doctrines, just has in the past."
Good because I would not want to live under Calvinism either or under the KKK.
"The only thing that prevents it from enforcing its religion on the world, is absolute political power."
All evil comes from the Catholic Church? Sneer. I am sorry but this deserves derision. It is such a shallow view of history.
"....just like they hate the true God and his infallible Word, the closed canon of Scripture."
Well that was so inspiring. Now let's all go out and burn a cross on someone's lawn. Oh wait, it was the Protestants of the KKK who did that and in America, land of the free! And against Blacks and Jews and Catholics. What was THAT all about? You know when my grandparents first moved to the south in the 20's they did not let it be known that they were Catholics. It was something you just did not broadcast around. They were worried about the KKK. And European Catholics and Jews were herded into shanty towns and ghettos to live in poverty. They were not received well by the WASPS that were there first. How many Catholic president's have we had? ONE! Prejudice? We know he had to assure the public that he would not let the pope run the country. (Such a stupid thing to even consider but that's the fear some backward people had.)
All I am saying is, there is plenty of blame to go around.
Redemption means to be purchased from the slave market of sin by the blood of Jesus Christ. Propitiation means that the sin debt has been satisfied by the blood of Christ. Justification means the believer is declared righteousness by Almighty God because of what Jesus Christ has done for his soul.
BigMack
BigMack
To be honest I do not believe that Tantumergo is on the up and up...That of course is just between us..
WHAT IS THE PRICE OF REDEMPTION? We are redeemed through Christ's blood (Col. 1:14; He. 9:12; 1 Pe. 1:18,19). Those who say the blood of Christ is only symbolic for death are wrong. The blood of the O.T. animal sacrifices was symbolic, typifying the blood of Christ, but the blood was real and was required by the law of God (Le. 17:11; He. 9:22). To change the word "blood" to "death" as some modern versions do is wickedness and is a denial of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
HOW PERMANENT IS REDEMPTION? It is eternal! "...having obtained eternal redemption for us" (He. 9:12).
WHAT DOES REDEMPTION INVOLVE? The term "redemption" is used interchangeably with "salvation." It refers to the fullness of our salvation in Jesus Christ. Redemption involves forgiveness of sins (Ep. 1:7); justification (Ro. 3:24); eternal inheritance (He. 9:15); resurrection (Ro. 8:23).
THREE ASPECTS OF REDEMPTION. (1) Past (Ga. 3:13). We have been redeemed from the condemnation of sin and the dominion of Satan. (2) Present (Tit. 2:14). We are being redeemed from the power of sin and Satan in our daily lives. (3) Future (Ro. 8:23). We shall be redeemed from the very presence of sin when Christ returns and we receive resurrection bodies.
BigMack
Does your dependency on being spoon fed by your supposedly infallible guru extend even to this?
1979 was only the first printing. The second edition was printed in March 1996.
You must have been so distracted by your snorting that you missed some very important points I made earlier. It is only because the Calvinists respect Sola Scriptura so much that they drew up America's founding documents to guarantee that you wouldn't have to live under "Calvinism".
How is a person justified? (1) Justification is free (Ro. 3:24). We do not become righteous before God through good works, religious rituals, morality, law-keeping. It is a free gift. (2) Justification is because of Christ's redemption (Ro. 3:24). Justification is free because Jesus Christ paid the price with His own blood and death. (3) Justification is through faith in Christ (Ro. 3:25-28; 4:3-6; 5:1). Man's part in justification is to repent of his sin and to trust Jesus Christ.
Other important truths about justification: (1) Justification is by imputation, not impartation. Justification is not God making a sinner righteous, but God declaring him righteous. It is true that God gives the believer a righteous nature, which remains in him and causes him to love and serve God, but this is not justification; this is regeneration (2 Co. 5:17). Justification is God imputing to the believing sinner the very righteousness of Jesus Christ (2 Co. 5:21; Ro. 4:4-6). (2) Justification is in Jesus Christ. To have Christ is to have justification (1 Co. 1:30; 2 Co. 5:21). (3) Justification is a present possession, not a process and a possibility (Ro. 5:9). Justification is not a gradual thing whereby a person grows in righteousness. The believer is as fully justified the day he is converted as he is after forty years of spiritual growth. Believers do grow in obedience, but this is not justification; it is sanctification (1 Pe. 2:1-2). (4) Justification promises eternal safety from wrath (Ro. 5:9-11). Since the believer possesses justification through Christ's blood, he does not have to fear ever suffering God's wrath. It is God who declares the believer righteous; thus the danger of wrath and condemnation are forever past for those who are justified by Christ's blood.
Position and Practice. The Bible makes a plain distinction between the Christian's position and his practice. Other terms for this are standing and state, relationship and fellowship, union and communion. The believer's position in Christ is unchanging, secure, and eternal the moment he is born again into God's family. His practice, on the other hand, depends upon his day by day fellowship with Christ and is a fluid condition. Justification has to do with the believer's position before God.
The book of Ephesians lays out this distinction plainly. Chapters one through three present the believer's position and standing; chapters four through six deal with his practice and state, his walk. In Ep. 1-3 the believer is repeatedly said to be "in Christ" (1:1,3,4,6,7,10,11,12,13; 2:6,10,13,22; 3:6,12). This is the theme of this section of the epistle. The key word in Ep. 1-3 is "grace" (1:2,6; 2:5,7,8; 3:2,7). In Ep. 4-6 the subject changes to the believer's walk in this world. The key words in Ep. 4-6 are "walk" (4:1,17; 5:2,8,15), "conversation" (4:22), "put on" (4:24; 6:11), and "obey" (6:1). The pivotal verse is Ep. 4:1--"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called." Here we are told the believer is to bring his daily walk into line with his eternal calling. He does not live right in order TO BE called or in order to perfect his calling, but because he HAS BEEN called. There is a world of difference. To serve God because you have been saved is the Gospel; to serve God in an attempt to attain salvation or to perfect one's salvation is a perversion of the Gospel. Ep. 5:8 says, "For ye were sometimes darkness, but NOW are ye light in the Lord: WALK as children of light." The believer's position in Christ is that he is "light in the Lord." This is a present, eternal reality. He is instructed to live up to that position in his daily life.
The difference between position and practice is also seen in 1 John. Here the Lord makes a plain distinction between relationship and fellowship. The theme of 1 John is "... that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ." The theme is fellowship, not relationship. It is written to those who have already established a relationship with God as children through faith in Christ. The Scriptures teach that a person is placed positionally into the family of God the moment he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. God once for all imputes the righteousness of Christ to the sinner's account, and is forever satisfied (propitiated) in relation to that believer's sin because of the blood and death of Christ. This is where confession of sins enters into the Christian life. Obedience and confession of sins are essential in order to remain in fellowship with the Savior, but our walk in no way affects our position in Christ, or our relationship with God as our Father. If we sin He still remains our Father and Christ remains our Advocate (1 Jn. 2:1). How can this be? It is because He paid the full price demanded by God's law for sin (1 Jn. 2:2), and eternal life is a free gift, totally undeserved and unmerited by man, received by simple faith in Christ alone, and secure upon receipt.
The Gospel of John also shows this distinction plainly. In John 1-12 the focus is on the unsaved, and the message is "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Jn. 1:7,12; 3:15-16,18; 4:39; 5:24; 6:35,47; 7:38; 8:24; 9:35; 10:38; 11:26). When the unsaved asked about doing the works of God, Christ replied, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (Jn. 6:29). That is the only work God will accept from the unsaved. In chapter thirteen, though, Christ turns His attention to His own little flock and the theme changes from faith to obedience. "If a man love me, he will keep my words" (Jn. 14:23). This change in the theme of John's Gospel illustrates the difference between relationship and fellowship. Faith is the prerequisite for relationship; obedience is the requirement for fellowship. Faith is the way to become a child of God; obedience is the way to walk in fellowship with the Father.
BigMack
O Holy Theotokos, pray that we may be delivered from the gloomy toll-houses!
I think suffering for your sins is a spiritual requirement and a biblical reality that is God ordained. What about David of the Old Testament? I could have the wrong impression but you act like earthly suffering is just a man made formality that God could care less about.
"What does the bible mean in Heb. were it says, one scrafice perfected believers forever. What you are saying by believeing in purgatory is that you weren't perfected by the one sacrafice, that you have to add to it by going to purgatory to finish the job."
Are you saying that this passage you quoted means that you have been perfected such that you can escape any form of suffering for your sins? I think the passage means that we can never be perfected by doing the works of the law, only by Christ. That is NOT the same as saying you don't have to suffer for your sins. There is no contradiction between the Redemption and our suffering in expiation for our sins whether that suffering is in this life or in the next. Paul said I "rejoice in my sufferings for you, and [I] fill up those things that are wanting in the suffering of Christ" (Col. 1:24). Ronald Knox explained this passage by noting that "the obvious meaning is that Christ's sufferings, although fully satisfactory on behalf of our sins, leave us under a debt of honour, as it were, to repay them by sufferings of our own." And as we have said time and again, purgatory is temporary. And it is there that Christ himself perfects us. We don't perfect ourselves.
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