POPE'S ASTONISHING POWER HAS CHANGED THE WORLD

Spirit Daily ^ | July 27, 2002 | Michael Brown

[MarMema]

I suggest you look at the mixed picture his papacy presents.

Bravo.

[MarMema]

Check out the blatant idolatry and denial of God here.

[american colleen]

I'm a little late... I had to attend a wedding performed in a back yard with bare feet and presided over by a "Peace Minister" and listen to to worst 1970s meaningless, hippy talk imaginable.

Anyway, I love your #31 post and want to tell you so.

[Siobhan]

Please consider that there are other strategies than simply cleaning house.

For example, (1)keep your friends close, and your enemies closer; (2) Letting enemy prelates have enough rope till they hang themselves (as they are wont to do); (3)Or appointing a liberal/enemy in order to achieve the long term goal of galvanizing a core of faithful souls who oppose said enemy prelate and are readied for battle on another day when the stakes may be even higher.

As Tolkein wrote, "Not all those who wander are lost." And not all of the Pope's actions or appointments signify what they seem to show.

The memory of the Papacy is long, and movement within the Vatican is glacial -- on a speedy day.

There are many who believe that God the Father, or St. Michael the Archangel, or Our Lady has given the Holy Father particular direction to lead the Church to a point where their will be open schism with the liberals departing the Church. (I believe it was the Amsterdam apparitions where all were urged to pray that "the church of darkness would soon leave the Church of the Light of Christ".)

Could that be the case? Of course it could, but only God knows what is really going on within the Vatican and in chanceries, seminaries, and colleges around the world. The bottom line is that some will trust that the Pope is guided by God, and others will refuse to believe it nursing instead their distrust and mistrust of Pope John Paul II.

I trust the man who wrote Veritatis Splendor and Redemptoris Mater, the Pope who teaches us through the promulgation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I trust him. Others do not for whatever the reason du jour might be.

In the history of the Catholic Church there has always been much more going on than one could divine from activity on the surface of papal or Vatican actions.

[marajade]

"Also, the decline in Church attendance began in the mid-50s, and they affected every Christian denomination."

Are you saying that the Catholic Church is a demonination?

[NYer]

Thank you for your kind words.

Yet there are cardinals who question the Resurrection, who have doubts about the Real Presence, who wonder about Christ's divinity.

.... and who have passed their doubts onto their sheep. We, on this forum, are as concerned as you about this situation. We have also understood that it is no localized in the US. It is pervasive in western countries and culture. One glance at any european newspaper, affirms the depth to which these governments, our own included, have shifted from Judeo-Christian beliefs towards a godless society. Does it not stand to reason that even some shepherds of the church could be affected by virtue of their own weanesses? From what I have read, the situation is far more grave in the south american countries. The catholic population in Mexico is now shrinking.

I second Siobhan's respose (#44) to you. To that I would add that we, as confirmed catholics, must also shoulder the responsibility of defending and protecting the church that we hold dear. There was a post yesterday, quoting a newspaper article written by a Jew, who is praying for the catholic church. We are the last stronghold of religion that decries the culture of death.

Remember, too, that Christ chose 12 apostles. He knew that Judas would be a traitor, but did nothing to stop him. Jesus also knew that Peter would betray him 3 times, yet chose to hand the keys of His church to him. Those keys have been handed down to John Paul II. It is an awesome responsibility that few would voluntarily choose.

The Holy Father heard the cries of those sequestered behind the Iron Curtain and responded. It didn't happen overnight. He needed a willing ally and found it in President Reagan. Who among us could ever have imagined that we would witness the collapse of communism in Russia!! The nuns had us praying for that throughout my school years. The pope is surrounded by traitors and, possibly worse, yet he does not cast them out from the Vatican. He is following a path that was laid out 2000 years ago. He needs our prayers.

The chinese have a proverb that says: "May you live in interesting times!" That seems appropriate in our days.

PS - it seems you have stirred up yet another soul. Check out the post from Marmade (or something like that). LOL - You'll keep us all on our toes, I'm sure.

[Salvation]

You mention feelings (emotions).

Feelings just are. They are neither right nor wrong. What you do with the feelings is far more important. For example, if I feel angry, I can stuff it and flare out at someone later in the day for no reason at all. Or, I can confront the person with whom I am feeling angry right then, and let them know what is angering me as long as I do it in a civilized manner, not condescending or belittling, etc.

Feelings or emotions are want drive us to action. Think about a family confronted with a burglar.......and the father's feelings about protecting his family totally overide the thought process of seeking safety.

Just something to think about. I think you were talking about heartfelt judgments, rather than emotions or feelings.

Now on to the other comments about Pope John Paul II.

Yes, he may have sat on this information, but I am in no place to judge, for I don't know all the details.

Secondly, Popes have made mistakes before. We have examples in the Crusades and Inquisitions of misguided and mistaken judgments by Popes. For these I ask your forgiveness of the Catholic Church. So many people think that everything that a Pope says or does falls into the "infallibility" category.

I am sure that you are aware that the infallibility refers only to matters of ecclesiastical dogma. And in this category there have been only TWO papal decrees. Yes, only TWO, and they both had to do with the Blessed Virgin Mary.

I may be wrong in some of my wording here, but I am pretty sure I have the facts right.

[Salvation]

The Episcopal church in the US and UK is being revitalized by missionaries from Africa and Asia. And if you look in most diocese that still strongly defend the faith, you will find that they have priests from other countries working here. We just ordained a priest from Kenya to work in the local inner city. And my mother's parish has a young Vietnamese priest who came here as a refugee as a child.

The priest at my parish is from Sri Lanka, and believe me, he has that missionary and evangelizing spirit! Praise the Lord!

Our church is growing and we are looking at building a new church in five years and possibly a new school and gym within ten years. Already we had to buy a portable from a school district for our youth groups who had outgrown the rooms in our parish hall. It is so exciting to be serving in this parish at this time.

[Salvation]

Finally the laymen went public and used the media to publicize this bishop's outrageous behavior.

You seem to know a lot about this situation -- I am assuming before Archbishop George. Were you among the group of lay people who took this to the media.

[Salvation]

This is pope-worship pure and simple, it is not Catholic.

Come on, ultima, you know that Catholics do not worship anyone but the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And we honor the Blessed Virgin Mary as the Mother of God the Son, Jesus Christ.

Has someone made you angry with the church in some way. I sense a streak of something in your comments.

[Salvation]

I was a seminarian myself in the 80's and met many fine devout young men. But I met weirdos as well-- too many of them.

Thank you for sharing this fact. I sensed that something was feeding the fiery message escaping from your fingers. God bless you as you try to heal this part of your life. For a healing weekend and moving on with your life consider a Beginning Experience weekend in your area.

And, BTW, welcome to Free Republic.

[Salvation]

Ultima
I agree with everything that NYer said to you in #31. We are happy to have you here, but just objected to the manner in which you seemed to be attacking. Even yesterday I think I posted somehing like-----Have you been hurt by someone in the church?

I will put in some links to the threads about the Eucharist and our consequent discussions and bump them to the top (BTTT) so that you can read them. Will it be OK for me to Ping you to them (so that you can find the threads in the "My Comments" or "Self-Search categories?)

And I am one of the people here who like the contemporary music. Music is only and instrument in the hands of a music minister. Many are moved by the more somber and Latin songs, but I am moved by the spirit filled and poignant message songs of contemporary music -- for instance, on the Way of the Cross in Toronto they sang one of my Holy Week favorites, "Were You There When They Crucified My Lord."

God bless you and yours.
Salvation

[Salvation]

Perhaps like St. Francis, we can answer the call of Christ to "repair his church". We are called to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ by virtue of our Baptism. And, who knows, through our prayerful participation in this forum we may bring about change in the church in America.

[Salvation]

will stay around long enough to prove himself,

Hang on here, girl, I think he already redeemed himself by sharing above about his previous venture into a corrupt seminary and consequently leaving it. Truly a sad story. That took a lot of guts.

Prayers on the other points will help for now.

God bless,
Salvation

[Salvation]

Feelings or emotions are want drive us to action.
what drive us to action. /Sorry

[Siobhan]

I am glad for you that you think he has redeemed himself.

[Salvation]

Here are some links to threads about the Holy Eucharist. You will see that we have varying views, but many of us lean toward more revernce, the Eucharist kept at the main altar, etc.

Enjoy!

Early Christians on the Holy Eucharist

Pope Writing Encycllical on Eucharist

Eucharist: Holy Meal

The Institution of the Eucharist in Scripture

The Eucharist in the Fathers

the True Eucharist

Eucharistic Ministers

[ultima ratio]

Thanks for the welcome. Sure, you or anyone else can ping me. As for "Were You There When They Crucified My Lord," I like it probably as much as you do. But for a long time now the Church has been scuttling traditional Catholic music in favor of such hymns and one has to ask why. When you add to this the fact that the Novus Ordo Mass is already virtually indistinguishable from a Methodist or a Lutheran Worship Service, I think we may genuinely start to worry about motives. On top of all this the Church has been plagued with modernist theologies and seminary training, coupled with the suppression of traditional Catholic devotions. I don't think it can be argued that what is going on is nothing less than the wholesale and systematic rejection of our own Catholic tradition--in music, in architecture, in liturgy, in theology, even in doctrine. So this issue is far more profound than merely whether or not you happen to like a Protestant hymn. It is the slow destruction of the Catholic identity and even the Catholic faith itself.

Examine the recent capitulation to the Lutherans on the doctrine of Justification. The declaration was more than a friendly ecumenical achievment. It was a frontal assault on the Council of Trent--which, unlike Vatican II, was a dogmatic, not a pastoral, council and therefore should compel every Catholic's assent. Or study the recent attempt by Vatican theologians to finesse Judaic-Catholic relations by affirming Jewish expectations for a Messiah--as if the actual rejection of Jesus as Messiah had never happened. Look again at the sleight-of-hand use of the word "subsist" instead of "is" in Lumen Gentium. It is actually a radical departure from the Church's clear understanding of its own identity as the Church of Christ. There have been many such attacks on traditional doctrines. None of these, by themselves, are lethal. But all together they represent a calamity for Catholicism.

My contention is that those, like yourself, who side with the Pope in a willingness to protestantize the Catholic faith, seem not to understand the stakes. This is a crisis in the Church unlike any other since the early days of the Arian heresy. What is happening is actually fundamental and cataclysmic and good Catholics are being forced to take sides: do we stand with the old Faith of our forefathers and obey the megisteria of preceding popes, or do we go along with the modernistic tide and keep faith with this one? You sometimes hear Caholics talk about "the living magisterium" to get around this dilemma. But must we reject the magisteria of two thousand years, going back to the Apostles for the sake of Vatican II--a mere pastoral council? To my mind the answer is no.

[Stavka2]

The arrogance you display in attacking the Holy Father shows that you are beyond the pale of your rights under Canon Law, and the spirit of dissent which is present in your posts shows you to be an enemy of the Holy Father and an enemy of Holy Mother Church

I believe that the last time you guys had this attitude, you lost half of the church...to some one called Martin Luther. Lack of self criticism is the road to Hell...it's called Pride...

[Stavka2]

If you were a Roman Catholic, you would know that it is not your place to judge the Holy Father's exercise of his ministry.

Blind faith in a mortal man is a quick trip to damnation. We do not put so much blind trust in our Patriarchs...they are holy men, but they are still mortals. Something good for you to remember: ANY one man is fallable and corruptable...the Church (in this case I refer to the Orthodox) is uncorruptable as a whole. This is exactly one of the reasons we will never accept the Papal "infallibility".