[patent]

Dissent was not tolerated before Vatican II, here or anywhere else. Give an example of open dissent on any important issue. I can only think of Fr. Feeney--and he got clobbered by the Vatican.

Again, Boston’s seminary. It was rampant with a homosexual subculture prior to V2, and at least for a time afterwards. It was well known, but they essentially took control and threatened to blackmail the Cardinal with all the seminarians leaving if he tried to get control back.

Eventually, years later, he took control, but for some time he tolerated the dissent. That is one.

I can also give you examples of where dissent has been cracked down on post Vatican II. Or I can cite to how long it took to crack down on Luther, the arch heretic, way back when. That the Church doesn’t move as quickly as you would like is not your position to judge.

patent  +AMDG

[Antoninus]

Again, Boston’s seminary. It was rampant with a homosexual subculture prior to V2, and at least for a time afterwards. It was well known, but they essentially took control and threatened to blackmail the Cardinal with all the seminarians leaving if he tried to get control back.

Was this not Cardinal Cushing? He attended and participated in Vatican II, did he not? Do we have any idea what his views were? I'm asking honestly because I do not know. A quick web search, however, revealed the following:

From a speech from a member of "Catholics for Free Choice:"

"Interestingly enough, closer to our day, in 1965 Massachusetts was beginning to legalize birth control. Cardinal Cushing was asked what his opinions were on the legalization of birth control. He said: "Catholics do not need the support of civil law to be faithful to their religious convictions and they do not seek to impose by law their moral views on other members of society." "

This one is also interesting, but I'm not familiar with the source:

"The process began innocently, with prelates like Boston's Richard Cardinal Cushing complaining of being shut out from the Council's business due to a language barrier. It's "all Greek to me," Cushing remarked mockingly of the Latin proceedings. When asked why he had not intervened on a particular subject, he retorted that linguistically he represented "the Church of Silence." He was not alone in feeling silenced by Latin. Cushing campaigned for siimultaneous translation of the Latin presentations into the various vernaculars, offering to pay for the installation himself, if necessary. He won. The system was installed in time for the Council's 1963 session." (John Deedy, "Facts, Myths & Maybes," Thomas Moore:Allen, Texas (1993), p. 251)

Make of these what you will....

[ultima ratio]

The operative word is "open." Dissent was never open prior to Vatican II. Whatever went on in the Boston Seminary, you can bet it wasn't open. No magazines or newspapers spoke of it. No word of it spread from mouth to mouth. No priests went on soapboxes to proclaim it or to organize it. Whatever dissent went on was secret, behind closed doors.