Posted on 07/19/2002 4:57:55 PM PDT by Polycarp
I attend several parishes regularly in my area. In the Archdiocese of Baltimore, it seems that priests take a few liberties with the rubrics. I don't like that. However, I've seen far, far worse in, say, the Diocese of Richmond.
In the handful of churches that I at least occasionally attend in the Archdiocese of Washington, there are no abuses readily recognizable (I'm not a liturgical expert, and even if I were, I can't keep my mind on looking for errors and mistakes while Jesus becomes present to us in the Eucharist.). In fact, the priests who celebrate Mass at these parishes are generally rather orthodox, and rather aggressively so. It is quite clear that there is substantial effort to celebrate Mass properly, with dignity, and with great love for our Lord.
As an officer and Past Grand Knight of my Knights of Columbus Council, I have occasion to attend Mass at some significant percentage of the parishes in the Archdiocese of Washington. I notice nearly nothing about which you speak. It seems at least in our Archdiocese, far more than 1% of our priests do a pretty decent job of saying Mass.
At least in my little piece of the world, we are seldom subjected to Masses that are an aberration or sacrilege.
I did read the article, but frankly, I wouldn't have responded to the one piece about "sexual autonomy" and the two rites of the Mass if you hadn't highlighted in an excerpt.
"If you want to tell me the Church is not rotten to the core in the USA, explain why 85% of married Catholics of childbearing age contracept or are sterilized."
Only 40% of Catholics attend Mass on a weekly basis. I really doubt that any of the remaining 60% of Catholics, who in my view are just not practicing Catholics (for goodness sake, if you can't even get to Mass on Sunday, how can you say you're a practicing Catholic??) avoid contraception or sterilization as a matter of moral principle. At least, I've never heard of a Catholic who didn't go to Mass who also had any moral problem with contraception.
That means that if 15% of Catholics of childbearing age are not contracepting, approximately 37% of Catholics who attend Mass every Sunday are not contracepting.
And, I'm just not sure that we're still stuck at 15%. Five or ten years ago, yup. I don't know. Maybe we are, but there is a new openness to Humanae Vitae that just didn't exist even ten years ago. Let's see what happens five or ten years hence.
Is the new openness to the Church's teaching on this issue a sign that the Church in America is rotten to the core?
All the human signs point to despair, my friend. The last human word on human life is death.
But don't forget, my friend, that Another had one more Word after that.
sitetest
Well, I suspect Christ's personality dominated the Last Supper, don't you think?
Honestly, our priests don't preen or perform theatrics during the liturgy, including the homily.
By the way...:
"So both the priesthood, as well as the vast majority of the laity, is de facto living in grave sin in this country."
How is the priest sinning? Unless he knows specifically that a specific congregant has an unconfessed mortal sin, he isn't sinning to offer the Eucharist to the individual.
He may be aware that, statistically, some large number of communicants may have committed an objective grave evil (though you are rash in moving from objective grave evil to an actual, culpable mortal sin), but except where an individual communicant has so informed him, he cannot know whether or not that communicant has committed a gravely evil act.
Do you suggest that priests randomly offer the Eucharist to only 15% of those who present themselves? Lie detectors prior to Mass? What??
sitetest
So true!
Most people don't know. Its things like the priest genuflecting at all the times the rubrics require. Or like not having extraordinary Eucharistic ministers habitually at every mass, which is an abuse Rome instructed the Church here to stop several years ago. Or that only the priest should purify the vessels after communion. Or that extraordinary ministers should not all be standing around the altar taking communion with the priest. Or altar boys, lectors, and deacons standing for the consecration. Or that all communicants, who do not receive kneeling, should make a sign of adoration immediately before receiving communuion, either a profound bow or genuflection. The list goes on and on.
Most people don't know, and they claim you are wrong when you even bring up these facts.
I've discussed this with priests. They know the ones living together. They know that 4 out of 5 married couples with only 1 kid are not infertile. They know far more than you are willing to admit.
Knowing these things, if they fail to preach about it and privately address their flock about it, they have committed serious sin by omission.
This is the stuff that confused me years ago... and I pretty much stopped attending mass. It seemed like each time I went to mass, something new (although small) had changed. Pretty soon, those small changes added up to big changes and I found mass almost the same as some Protestant services. It almost seemed to me, like one religion was as good as another. This coming from a Catholic HS educated person!
I know some Catholics in my parish who are pro-abortion, but most are pro-life, and many are actively pro-life. Our friends from church are traditional and uphold the teachings of the church on these and other matters, and we know that it is our example and our involvement that will bring wayward parishioners back into living their lives fully in communion with the church.
God bless.
C'mon, don't be flippant, sitetest. How about a simple sermon on contraception? Mention that if done with full knowledge and consent its a mortal sin. How about mentioning that living together is mortal sin? How about instructing them that they should not come up to receive communion if they are doing these things?
I have never heard from the altar a sermon that contraception is mortal sin barring the communicant from Holy Eucharist. Have you?
Ahhh, good summary of the problems with (innovations surrounding?) the new mass. The new mass, if nothing else, being almost exactly like the Lutheran and other protestant liturgies, both in form and use of the vernacular, has caused some to fall into indifferentism.
Absolution was given in Latin.
I prefer Contrition in English, and Absolution in English.
Some of these abuses have just been eliminated in our diocese. but only through the action of the bishop. But a Catholic coming from a nonconforming diocese would never know that these are any more than local practice.
Uh, maybe they've decided that they, the married couple themselves, will determine how many children they have and what method of birth control they will use.
Sterilization is wrong, certainly. But, many Catholic couples have decided, on their own, that non-abortafacient contraception is not sinful, occasionally.
I've discussed this with priests. They know the ones living together. They know that 4 out of 5 married couples with only 1 kid are not infertile.
So, do you suggest that they make an example of those "one kid" couples by not giving them the Eucharist?
American adult Catholics are big boys and girls, Polycarp. They will be responsible for their own decisions.
You're drunk. Or,intentionally confrontational.
In either case, your statement is simply stupid.
That has been my experience. When you know what to look for, you see it all the time.
Most of the time I attend mass now, I do it with my eyes closed for a good part of the liturgy.
At least my wife knows why, and that I'm not sleeping...
Locally, many priests do a one-handed-looking-down-on-the-host consecration, and they never even elevate it. Few genuflect all three times required. Most ad lib at least part of the mass where there is no ad libbing permitted.
If folks knew the rubrics, and just what is and is not permitted, they would be horrified at the large percentage of masses that are either openly illicit or at least very questionable. And of course, this does not even bring into review the whole notion of "sacred" or "reverent."
I may be purposely confrontational.
But that does not invalidate my statement.
Stupid? Hardly. I've talked to too many former Catholics who say, "Oh, what difference does it make. The services are all alike now anyhow."
When you're poorly catechized, similarity of liturgy can lead to indifferentism.
I almost became Lutheran when I was first married. Why not? The liturgies were identical, both in English, the only difference being that the Lutherans sang what we said and said what we sang.
Ad hominem. You can do better sink.
Textbook example of a "liberal." Thank you. In fact, in this case, the "liberal" involves both heterodoxy as well as heteropraxy. Believing and doing. And in so doing, committing grave sin, regardless of what they decided.
What if they decided, on their own, that abortion, homosexuality, or euthanasia are OK?
You say the vox populi of the modern Catholic is the voice of common sense.
I say its the voice of common apostacy, the root of the culture of death. As such, it again is the perfect illustration of Liberal.
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