The [Catholic Church] Coming-Out Party -- Unpacking the Mystery

DioceseReport.com ^ | July 19, 2002 | Joseph F. Wilson

[Aliska]

Isn't (wasn't?) his father James Likoudis, of Catholics United for the Faith?

I don't know, Mike. I only know about Paul through reading his articles in the Wanderer.

[sinkspur]

Is it any surprise that one of the highest concentrations of homosexuals are to be found in the modern "liberal liturgists'" ranks?

I frankly don't give a passing thought to "liturgists," liberal or otherwise. Those of us who happen to appreciate the Novus Ordo should not be lumped in with a bunch of weirdos who experiment with the Mass.

I would wager a considerable sum of money that Paul Likoudis attends the Tridentine Mass on Sundays. He doesn't like the Novus Ordo, he never has liked the Novus Ordo, and he and Fr. Wilson stretch to connect the dots between the Novus Ordo and every aberration, sexual and otherwise, that has been manifested anecdotally in the Church since Vatican II.

This book is a half-empty account of a Church that I see as half-full.

[Antoninus]

The happiest catholics I have met are liberals. Some of the others seem bogged down.

I suppose it's easy to be happy when you don't believe you are capable of committing a sin and believe in a 'loving' God who will forgive you even though you transgress his law and are completely unrepentent. Plus, they've been winning for a long time now.

Are conservatism and optism mutually exclusive?

What? I'm very conservative and very optimistic! Even though we've been on the losing side for so long, I see how poorly catechized liberal Catholics and how moribund their theology is and I know that they can not possible continue to win for much longer. Change is coming. There will be progress, but not anything like the kind of progress the liberal dissenters have been promulgating for the past 40 years...

[Polycarp]

Well, I guess I'm not much of a Catholic, my friend. I don't get it either. Is the author suggesting the obverse, then, that the new Mass is not a reproach to those whose goal is sexual autonomy?

I think its not so much the new mass itself as the accretions, distortions, and dissent that seem to accompany it in so many places. If it weren't for Rome, we'd have inclusive language texts already.

The blurring of gender at the altar and in all things liturgical IMHO undermines the centrality of the fact that we all relate to God as a bride to the bridegroom.

The words expounding that the mass is a sacrifice, a re presentation of Christ's same passion to God in our day, has been lost in the new mass english translations.

Raised after V II, I didn't even know the mass was a sacrifice until I was 24. Reading the entire text of the english version of the new mass, without proper catechesis, how would I have known?

In the old mass this Truth was quite clear.

why mask the nature of that sacrifice in the new mass, in lieu of substituting the protestant understanding of "table" and "bread" and "wine?"

If there is no original sin, there's no need for a sacrifice. If there is no original sin, we are not fallen.

Our sexuality cannot be deviant if we are not fallen.

It does make sense.

It is not absurd.

I'm disappointed in you, sitetest. I expect this kind of attitude from sinkspur. I didn't expect it from you.

[Antoninus]

We have a volunteer staff, from lectors, to Eucharistic Ministers, to RCIA instructors and helpers, to youth ministry, to engaged ministry, to RCIA sponsors, that numbers over 500 dedicated Catholics.

Yeah, and there are plenty of Evangelical churches that can boast the same kind of numbers. What, exactly, is your point? Two questions: What percentage of the population of your parish is Hispanic? How many Spanish Masses are said each Sunday?

[Polycarp]

I would wager a considerable sum of money that Paul Likoudis attends the Tridentine Mass on Sundays

I'll ask him, and get back to you.

I write for the Wanderer too at times, and if you follow it, you'll realize they have Zero tolerance for schismatic traditionalists.

That said, your implication of guilt by association with attending the Indult Latin Mass is laughable.

Maybe you love the N.O. Fine. So do I when it is celebrated according to rubrics.

Yet I also occasionally enjoy the Tridentine Mass, but only because I prefer kneeling to receive the Real Presence in the Eucharist, though it is a luxury I only get about once a year now.

[Antoninus]

Well, I guess I'm not much of a Catholic, my friend. I don't get it either. Is the author suggesting the obverse, then, that the new Mass is not a reproach to those whose goal is sexual autonomy?

One thing I can say about the Novus Ordo I generally attend -- there is no reproach of sin going on there. One of our priests habitually omits the Confiteor (can't have people feeling guilty, now can we?). Rarely do we hear a call to go to Confession. Sexual sins are never addressed from the pulpit, yet economic sins are mentioned constantly.

And yet, I'm relatively happy with this church compared to the one I used to attend in Boston. I was just recovering my Catholic faith at that time and the silly stuff they used to do at Mass there almost chased me right back out...

[Polycarp]

Those of us who happen to appreciate the Latin Mass should not be lumped in with a bunch of weirdos who are schismatic fools.

[RobbyS]

You in the East have a slightly different problem: priests who are actually Communists.

[ELS]

Look what I came across, without even actively looking for it, within hours of replying to you on another thread.

We went through a liturgical reform which was to have renewed the Church; a sixty percent decline in Mass attendance over thirty years resulted.

The Religious communities which were such a vibrant part of the Catholic scene before the Council underwent "renewal" and have been staggering towards the grave ever since.

Near the end of Goodbye, Good Men, Michael Rose describes the growth and decline of the priesthood and seminary enrollment throughout the 20th century in America. If I come across more info, I will post it.

[Antoninus]

Raised after V II, I didn't even know the mass was a sacrifice until I was 24. Reading the entire text of the english version of the new mass, without proper catechesis, how would I have known? In the old mass this Truth was quite clear. why mask the nature of that sacrifice in the new mass, in lieu of substituting the protestant understanding of "table" and "bread" and "wine?" If there is no original sin, there's no need for a sacrifice. If there is no original sin, we are not fallen. Our sexuality cannot be deviant if we are not fallen. It does make sense. It is not absurd.

Beautifully put, as usual. It's funny, I knew hardly ANYTHING about the Mass, even though I went through 12 years of Catholic education. I grew up in the era of guitar masses and priest who worked the crowd like Donahue during the homily. I thought that's what the mass was - a hokey gathering with really bad music that tried pathetically to be 'hip' or 'theatrical' but failed miserably. The Eucharist was a nice piece of raisin bread or pita (I'm not kidding) and the priest was just an amiable old fellow who showed up to "talk" to us. We even had a clown mass...

I first got the inkling that there was more to the Mass when I studied Byzantine history in college. During that class, we attended a Byzantine rite mass -- it was positively stunning. And reverent! It was almost as if these folks really believed that they were worshiping an Omnipotent God and not just having a fun party.

Then years later I attended my first Tridentine Mass and read the explanations of the various prayers in the missal and it really hit me -- we traded THIS for ... what?

Don't get me wrong. The Novus Ordo, when celebrated properly, can be reverent, uplifting, and beautiful as well -- though some of the translations of the Eucharistic prayers are just puerile. Unfortunately, the number of priests who bother to stick to the rubrics that I've run across I could count on one hand ... and I've been to Masses all across the country, from San Francisco, to Chicago, to Madison, to San Antonio, to Maine.

[RobbyS]

I get it too. What us wrong is not the new mass, but the way that reformers have played with it and made themselves the "stars". Formerly a pries was pretty anaoymous. With his back tourned toward you, the thing you saw was the Chasuble which, not accidentally, a work of art. Now it is a mere custome worn by the priest as he does his song and dance, his face and voice being the most prominent feature of the liturgy.

[Polycarp]

Don't get me wrong. The Novus Ordo, when celebrated properly, can be reverent, uplifting, and beautiful as well -- though some of the translations of the Eucharistic prayers are just puerile. Unfortunately, the number of priests who bother to stick to the rubrics that I've run across I could count on one hand ... and I've been to Masses all across the country, from San Francisco, to Chicago, to Madison, to San Antonio, to Maine.

Excellent summary. Our experiences are quite the same.

I did some missionary work in Haiti a few years ago. The mass was in the local vernacular, Creole.

I could not even follow it. It was so foreign, even to include bongo drums, that I never even knew when the consecration occurred.

Love it or hate it, at least, everywhere and at all times, Catholics knew where they were in the Mass with Latin.

Interestingly, our local diocesan cathedral just started using bongo drums too...

[Polycarp]

You in the East have a slightly different problem: priests who are actually Communists.

There's plenty of recriminations to go around both East and West. Lets not start this. What point does it serve?

[Mike Fieschko]

There's plenty of recriminations to go around both East and West.

Amen. How many Americans know who the 'Pax Terriers' were?

[RobbyS]

One irony is that mass in the vernacular separates Catholics. There is a mass in English, there a mass in Spanish. Unless one follows the same rubics, it is difficult to go from one mass to the other.

[sinkspur]

Our sexuality cannot be deviant if we are not fallen.

Sexuality is not deviant. You haven't read much of what John Paul II has written on the subject lately, obviously.

The blurring of gender at the altar and in all things liturgical IMHO undermines the centrality of the fact that we all relate to God as a bride to the bridegroom.

Oh, please. This sounds like something THE LATIN MASS magazine would promote.

You don't like women in the sanctuary. That's fine. But it's quite a stretch, Poly, to extrapolate that to be an undermining of the relationship between Christ as the bridegroom and we as the bride.

The words expounding that the mass is a sacrifice, a re presentation of Christ's same passion to God in our day, has been lost in the new mass english translations.

THIS IS MY BODY, WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.

I hear this every Sunday. What does this mean to you, if not a sacrifice?

In the old mass this Truth was quite clear.

Really? How?

why mask the nature of that sacrifice in the new mass, in lieu of substituting the protestant understanding of "table" and "bread" and "wine?"

Jesus, on the night before he died, sat at table and took bread and wine and made them His Body and Blood.

I'm disappointed in you, sitetest. I expect this kind of attitude from sinkspur. I didn't expect it from you.

What "attitude" do you expect? You're a bit surly tonight, my friend. Have a bad day at work?

(If you slam me in a post, I'd appreciate a page to the post so I can respond.)

[katherineisgreat]

There are some very joyful conservatives at my Catholic Church who are deeply spirtual and truly happy.

[don-o]

There's plenty of recriminations to go around both East and West. Lets not start this. What point does it serve?

You are correct. On the board, it does no good, at all. But, I am willing to FreepMail with anyone who wants a respectful exchange in private.

I ask forgiveness, that my invitatation to "swim the Bosporus" elicited recriminations.

I want to start a poll. When will RnMom first post on this thread?

My guess is, prety soon.

[Antoninus]

I did some missionary work in Haiti a few years ago. The mass was in the local vernacular, Creole. I could not even follow it. It was so foreign, even to include bongo drums, that I never even knew when the consecration occurred.

Funny, I had a similar experience in San Antonio with a Mariachi band in the Cathedral. During the sign of peace, a 10 minute party broke out. Could you see that happening at a Tridentine Mass? Positively bizarre.