Letter of Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos to Mgr. Fellay

Una Voce` ^

[Antoninus]

It is impertinent and impudent for the SSPX to make any "demands" of the Pope regarding how they should get out from under excommunication, especially when the Pope has sought patiently to reconcile them like a father going after strayed sons. The Roman Catholic Church is not a smoking club where, like Fems, demands are made to get in, it is the Way of salvation. Obedience is better than sacrifice, humility better than cleverness, etc.

Yes, that's all well and good, but you didn't answer the question.... here it is again. Care for a second try?

If the Vatican and SSPX were to reconcile on exactly the terms the SSPX has demanded, what would your reaction be?

[ELS]

As I told patent, I don't have the citation at my fingertips for the survey that I read that said most Catholics today don't believe in the Real Presence. Since most Catholics today attend the New Mass, I think there is a direct relation.

You apparently presume that I was glad to read that survey result. I assure you I was not. That was why I remembered the essence of it.

I took undergraduate courses at the Catholic University of America from pontifically-licensed Catholic theologians

The same theologians who publicly dissented from Humanae Vitae and told American Catholics that they could, too? Um, OK.

[Antoninus]

See the August issue of Crisis magazine for yet another account of that flawed work which sought to tell but half the story.

Your credibility is shrinking, shrinking, shrinking, shrinking, shrinking...

That article in Crisis has already been thoroughly discussed here and effectively rebutted my Michael Rose himself. Who do you think you're kidding?

[Siobhan]

You are dishonoring the Holy Theotokos by using a title that is reserved for her alone. In the Holy Name of Mary Most Holy, I demand you cease use of the screen name "theotokos", and take up another name. By the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, may this wrong be righted at once.

Siobhan

[sitetest]

Dear ELS,

"As I told patent, I don't have the citation at my fingertips for the survey that I read that said most Catholics today don't believe in the Real Presence. Since most Catholics today attend the New Mass, I think there is a direct relation."

You're missing the point. I've seen similar studies. I've also seen studies that indicate that 60+% of Catholics believe in the Real Presence. How to tell which is right?

I look at the methodology. That is, in part, what I went to school for. I have a basic understanding of social science methodology, and can make a pretty good determination of which of two methodologies ought to work better. The studies that indicate relatively low belief in the Real Presence, to my reasonably well-informed mind, are flawed. The studies that show a relatively higher belief in the Real Presence seem to have better methodology. As I explained in my last post. Which you haven't shown that you understand. Perhaps you didn't read it. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

You are in error to think that a majority, even of self-identified Catholics, no less actual practicing Catholics, do not believe in the Real Presence.

Thus, your conclusion is incorrect.

As to the professors who taught me at the Catholic University of America, some were orthodox and some were not. But all were honest. If they believed what was not orthodox, they said, "Here is the teaching of the Church. Now here is what I believe." And they made it quite clear where they disagreed.

Of course, honesty isn't alway coincident with fairness. More than one professor gave me a less than stellar grade, in part because I dissented from their own personal views of what should be Church teaching.

But, of course, you've missed the point again. My point was that even with a Catholic education denied to most, the details of the doctrine of transubstantiation can be difficult to grasp, and after 20+ years, I'm sure that I'm quite hazy about some of the technical terms of the metaphysics. And thus, one might judge me heterodox if I fail to accurately remember the right answer to some aspect of the teaching.

That doesn't mean I don't believe in the Real Presence. So it is for Catholics with lesser educations.

sitetest

[patent]

Whatever...

Why are you being so rude?

my initial question wasn't to you anyway.

Are you suggesting that I cannot reply to you unless you first post to me? Does that standard cut both ways or does it apply to me alone? You have joined into discussions I was having with others, and replied to my posts to them. I hardly think I am out of line to reply to your post.

I am not a lawyer and I don't even play one. I'm sorry I can't express myself well enough to meet your standards.

Being a lawyer has nothing to do with it, nor does expressing yourself.

You are sufficiently familiar with math and statistics to know that my criticism is a valid one. If you want to show a real decline in belief in the Real Presence, and then blame that decline on the Novus Ordo or whatever you would like to blame it on, then you need to show an actual decline. You cannot do that by posting one data point.

This point is such a simple one I'm a bit shocked you fight admitting it, it pretty much kills your credibility.

If you are truly interested, I'm sure you can find the info on the Web.

I tried. I could not find any pre 1960 stats on belief in the Real Presence. If you can, post them. If not, you should have the good grace to admit you can’t prove an actual decline. based on this.

patent  +AMDG

[american colleen]

My screen name is to glorify the Theotokos by reminding the unorthodox Catholics here of her and by emphasizing faith in the promises of her Son to the Vicar of Christ. Thus your command is rejected forthwith and fifthwith.

Well then, it would make sense to have someone with a screen name of "Jesus Christ" or "God" posting here, in order to remind the "unorthodox" Catholics on FR of the promises of Him to his faithful believers.

I must admit that I was a bit disconcerted when I saw your screen name - maybe you could keep Theotokos and add "for the glory of" or something along those lines? Then I'd stop imagining you with a veil covering your head and with stars at your feet.

[narses]

You say it isn't fair -- I posted the link so that all could read the entire, enormous letter.

"That isn’t a fair quotation when you neglect the tons of stuff that was said after that."

Let's look to the end of the letter then:

"I know that many people, lay, priests and religious of the Society of St. Pius X, want to find peace of mind, in full reconciliation with the Church."

The fact is there are issues of trust on both sides that need resolution. It is also fact that the SSPX is certainly NOT heretical and arguably not schismatic.

Again, "...based on the fact that your Fraternity certainly was not spreading any heretical doctrine and did not maintain schismatic attitudes,...", according to the President of the Ecclesia Dei Commission.

[narses]

You claim the SSPX is a a veritable counter-theology / counter church, and yet the President of the Ecclesia Dei Commission says they are NOT heretical, they are not maintaining schismatic attitudes. He says much more critical of them but with great charity and a spirit of reconcilliation. Do you know more about the SSPX than Card. Castrillon?

[patent]

It is also fact that the SSPX is certainly NOT heretical and arguably not schismatic.

I would agree that as a body it is not heretical, but I would not agree that as a body it is arguably not schismatic. The Pope excommunicated the Bishops - the Bishops are therefore not in communion - and, as the Cardinal mentioned, those excommunications are still in force, and they are currently undergoing negotiations to restore them to communion. Why would they negotiate if they weren’t schismatic? That would be nonsense. As the Cardinal said his opinion early in these negotiations was that “your Fraternity . . . did not maintain schismatic attitudes.” This does not mean that, in his opinion, they didn’t once maintain those attitudes, or that they are no longer in schism, nor does it even imply such. If they weren’t in schism, his later references to that subject would be silly, and I suggest to you that you should not think this man makes such references, even as diplomatically as he does here, lightly.

Regardless, you keep quoting an opinion of his from early in the discussions, as if that is still his opinion. You need to look at what he has to say after he has spent more time with them:

even if today I am convinced that there are those in your ranks who no longer have the true faith in the authentic Tradition of the Church; those who, without a conversion caused by the Holy Spirit, will return with difficulty to unity, it seems to me.

---

What has urged me on from the beginning, and causes me to write to you today, is the charity of Christ which compels me not to neglect a single attempt to make unity, a true mark of charity, triumph. Today, more than yesterday, I suffer and carry the weight of knowing you are in a situation of excommunication, whereas all the faithful of Campos have henceforth happily passed from this situation, under the leadership of their pastor.

I don’t see how you can think they are anything but schismatic given those words, nor how you can deny that in his view there are those in the Society who clearly have a schismatic mentality.

You can repeat his early words all you like, and ignore his later ones, but they are rather clear and forceful for a Roman diplomat.

Dominus Vobiscum

patent  +AMDG

[Siobhan]

I am not surprised by your rejection. Let it stand then that you presume to use the title Theotokos which properly and only belongs to the Holy Virgin Mary and that you also choose to behave and interact with others in a way that brings dishonor and shame upon all Catholics and Orthodox Christians.

[Siobhan]

My screen name is to glorify the Theotokos by reminding the unorthodox Catholics here of her and by emphasizing faith in the promises of her Son to the Vicar of Christ.

Then you have failed miserably in your self-appointed crusade.

You have no right to use the title of the Blessed Mother. You are engaged in an act of blasphemy. Repent while you still have time and change your screen name.

[Siobhan]

Thank you.