Recent Activity Between Rome and Society Saint Pius X (SSPX)

Diocese Report blog ^

[sinkspur]

A small number of modernists in France within the FSSP started concelebrating the Novus Ordo Mass.

So one is a "modernist" if he "concelebrates" the Novus Ordo?

The FSSP is in union with Rome, so, of course, no one in it can forbid the Novus Ordo.

And no, I've never spoken to either Fellay or Williamson, but Williamson has been reported, in a news release at TCRnews.com, to be the one who is adamantly against accepting any part of Vatican II.

These guys better reconcile with JPII while he's still around. A more moderate Pope will turn his back on them.

[sinkspur]

They just want to try to live on what the church has been.

The SSPX rejects Vatican II in its entirety, at least the more radical faction within it does.

Williamson doesn't want an apostolic administration (something like a rite within the Catholic Church, which would allow the SSPX to go on as before), probably because he feels this to be some kind of second-class status.

What do they think they are now?

[narses]

When the FSSP was formed it was assured that it would be a society devoted to the Tridentine Mass and the 1962 Missal and the rules of the Order forbade the concelebration of the New Mass. Every member agreed when they joined to those rules. Rome vitiated that rule and eviscrated the leadership of the FSSP. Now they've replaced the former SG and have started changing the Tridentine Mass itself to more closely conform to the N.O. Mass. That in spite of the promises made to those who formed the FSSP at the invitation of Rome. It was and is bad faith. It was and is reason for the SSPX to procede with deliberate caution.

[sinkspur]

It was and is reason for the SSPX to procede with deliberate caution.

Only if one values the Tridentine Mass above union with the successor of Peter.

[narses]

Don't depend on one news source for your information is my advice sinkspur. Rome reached out to the SSPX, Rome is working with them, Rome gave them permission to celebrate the Tridentine Mass in Rome during the Jubillee (would Rome agree to that if they were truly in Schism?) and Rome has already agreed to remove the suspensions and the excommunications as they have with the Eastern Orthodox seperated brethern, it is now simply a question of timing. This is a major issue and the SSPX will return to Rome and when they do it will be with the removal of the Indult that appears to forbid everyone except the FSSP the Tridentine Mass except with permission. That is the biggest stumbling block, not Bp. Williamson. That plus the ability to discuss, debate and argue wrt the merits of the N.O. Mass, a block apparently removed by the news herein.

[sinkspur]

Was this ordination held in a tent? Couldn't the SSPX at least find a funeral home or something?

[sinkspur]

This is a major issue and the SSPX will return to Rome and when they do it will be with the removal of the Indult that appears to forbid everyone except the FSSP the Tridentine Mass except with permission.

Is this your opinion, or is there something definitive on this, as this is the first I've seen anywhere that Rome will lift the Indult.

Does this mean the SSPX will accept the legitimacy of Vatican II, as Lefebvre was ready to do before he died but Wiliamson said no?

[narses]

Since the SSPX has never left unity with Rome, rather choosing to remain faithful to the eternal truths of Rome against a modernist revolt that has led to heretics being appointed Cardinal, your comment is meaningless noise. If the SSPX wasn't faithful to Rome, they wouldn't come every time Rome called.

[sinkspur]

That plus the ability to discuss, debate and argue wrt the merits of the N.O. Mass, a block apparently removed by the news herein.

Well, Fellay and company can discuss, debate and argue the merits of the N.O. Mass now. Apparently, Fellay says he accepts its validity, which is progress.

[narses]

Vatican II is not and never has been the issue. If you believe that it is, you are uninformed. A.Bp. Lefevre was one of the Fathers of Vatican II.

[sinkspur]

Since the SSPX has never left unity with Rome, rather choosing to remain faithful to the eternal truths of Rome against a modernist revolt that has led to heretics being appointed Cardinal, your comment is meaningless noise.

The SSPX is schismatic, and has been declared so by JPII himself. If they're in "union" now, why the need for any kind of "rapproachment"?

[sinkspur]

A.Bp. Lefevre was one of the Fathers of Vatican II.

Please. Lefebvre rejected Vatican II shortly after its conclusion, though he was prepared to renounce his rejection shortly before his death.

[narses]

I've read his books, you misrepresent his position enormously. He said:

"...we refuse... to follow the Rome of neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant tendencies which became clearly manifest during the Second Vatican Council and, after the Council, in all the reforms which issued from it."

That isn't a rejection of Vatican II, rather a rejection of the so-called "reforms" that followed. Precision is a valuable tool in written debate sinkspur.

[FBDinNJ]

I think you're being a little bit too harsh. The SSPX usually only holds these types of ceremonies in tents because of the large crowds that they attract. The SSPX has many large churches that they own, and I believe it was last year that they consecrated a church of theirs outside of Denver which they spent about two million dollars on. This is besides the point though, because from all the pictures I've seen of the ordination, it appears that the ceremony was done properly and with a sense of reverence.

Here's a picture of the altar used at the recent ordination.

This is a picture from outside of the SSPX's Seminary up in Minnesota

This picture and the next one is from inside the chapel of their seminary

This is a photo of another ordination which took place at their Seminary in Switzerland.

[sinkspur]

That last picture....I've never seen black vestments worn at an ordination. Not a good sign.

[narses]

Wow, the color of the vestments bothers you, but does honey in the Host? Or no Words of Consecration?

[sinkspur]

Wow, the color of the vestments bothers you, but does honey in the Host? Or no Words of Consecration?

Black vestments at an ordination don't bother you? They'd bother me, if I was one of the poor saps being ordained by the white-glove-wearing Fellay.

Anecdotal abuses (such as honey in the host) ought to be dealt with.

As for the "no words of Consecration," you are referring to a Vatican-approved recognition of a Church which believes in the Real Presence. I have no problem with it.

[St.Chuck]

Moreover, the 1962 Missal is being taken away, Communion in the hand is being pushed and they are in disarray due to the betrayal from Rome

I have never seen nor heard of any of these allegations. I have been to many FSSP mass communities, at least in this country, and I can assure you that nothing could be further from the truth. It sounds like SSPX propaganda to me.

[patent]

The sticking point currently seems to be that the SSPX won't accept Rome's offers to come fully back into the church until the Pope grants all Priests the right to say the Tridentine Mass, whenever they want to, and I don't think this is currently a posibility.

How come? What would be the big deal with a priest saying the Mass in Latin if he wants to do so? I don't understand.

For quite some time the Pope has been in charge of the liturgy. He determines what is the normative Roman Rite, not some schismatic bishop or priest. He determines what all the priests will say for Mass.

Now, we have a group of four illicitly consecrated Bishops and their priests who don’t like what a recent Pope did with the Mass, so they schismed. In order to return they want to dictate to the Pope that all priests should be able to say the Mass as they prefer it, not as the Pope prefers it.

Exactly who are they to dictate what Mass the Pope’s priests should say? Can anyone dictate the terms of the Mass by simply schisming, and making that a condition of returning?

Schismatics to not determine what Rite of Mass is allowed and what is not. The Pope does.

patent  +AMDG

[patent]

And they clearly have good cause for suspicion, look at the treatment of their parallel order, the FSSP, in the last year. Promised full Communion with Rome, their own Superior and eventually Bishop and freedom from the New Mass,

Care to document all that?

Moreover, the 1962 Missal is being taken away, Communion in the hand is being pushed

Care to document this as well?

Dominus Vobiscum

patent  +AMDG