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Catholic Caucus: The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass
New Oxford Review ^ | J+M+J June A.D. 2002 | Mario Derksen

Posted on 06/22/2002 5:57:49 PM PDT by Siobhan

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

There is probably no doctrine in the Catholic Faith that has been misunderstood more by Protestants than that of the Holy Mass. The Mass is the central act of Catholic worship: Christ's sacrifice on Calvary is perpetuated because the priest offers it anew to the Father. It is not a new sacrifice, but the same one that Jesus offered on the Cross 2,000 years ago, the difference being that in the Mass it is — in a sense — unbloody. Jesus does not die or suffer again at each Mass, but is simply re-presented, re-offered to the Father.

In short, the only difference between the Sacrifice of the Cross and that of the Mass is that the mode of offering is different. On the Cross, the mode of offering was bloody; in the Mass, the mode of offering is unbloody. This is the only difference. Since Christ's Sacrifice is present both on Calvary and at every single Mass, it is the same Sacrifice, and what is said of one must be said of the other. Therefore, since Christ's Sacrifice on Calvary was propitiatory — i.e., sin-atoning — so is the Sacrifice of Holy Mass. The Council of Trent teaches very explicitly: "Appeased by this sacrifice [of the Mass], the Lord grants the grace and gift of penitence and pardons…crimes and sins."

By giving us the Mass, our Lord has ensured a way to apply the graces merited on His Holy Cross to us today, to all of His faithful in any and every age. As James Cardinal Gibbons noted, "In the Sacrifice of the Mass I apply to myself the merits of the sacrifice of the cross, from which the Mass derives all its efficacy." The Mass carries the Cross throughout the centuries until Christ returns. Each and every day (except Good Friday), the Church celebrates Mass to make present what Christ has wrought, to dispense and unlock again the infinite graces which He earned for us so that God's wrath for us on account of our sins might be appeased. Since Christ's Sacrifice is infinite and all-pleasing to God, there is potential forgiveness of any sin, if our souls are properly disposed and we are truly penitent.

Protestants will try to tell you that Christ underwent our punishment — He did not! If that were so, then Christ would have had to be sent to Hell for all eternity, for this is what we truly deserve (see Rev. 20:13-14). Christ suffered for us, no question, but He did so in order to earn for us God's forgiveness, not so that we wouldn't have to suffer or be punished temporarily. In other words, Jesus helped us avoid Hell not by undergoing the punishment Himself, but by offering Himself to God in order to appease God's wrath and prevent His justice from being executed (see Isa. 53:10-12; Heb. 2:17). Just as lambs and goats were slain in the Old Testament in order to appease the wrath of God, so Christ was slain and slaughtered to appease God's wrath, but with Christ it was once and for all.

However, we are talking here about possible, or potential, forgiveness, not necessarily actual forgiveness. The Church does not teach that because of what Christ did for us, all sins will be forgiven in the sense that all people will be saved in the end; rather, the truth is that all sins can be forgiven because of Christ's ultimate act of love. What does the "can" depend on? It depends on us, on our willingness to repent, receive forgiveness, and obey Christ (see Heb. 3:12-15; Rom. 11:21-23). So that the graces of Calvary can be applied to all believers, and not just to those who were around the Cross that first Good Friday, our Lord instituted the Holy Mass. Now all who attend Mass can benefit from Christ's wonderful Sacrifice and receive His Body and Blood.

Protestants don't avail themselves of that privilege. All they do is pray, sing, read the Bible, and hear a sermon. No wonder, then, that the focus during their service is on the preacher, the "pastor," who is expected to give them a moving sermon. Protestants seem to believe that they have to "feel good" at their worship service. (I'm thinking especially of Evangelicals and Pentecostals here.) Since all they can focus on is the Bible, the music, and the pastor's sermon, it follows that if there is no emotional reaction on their part, they figure that something is wrong. This is evidenced by the preacher's tone, which is usually extremely emotional and theatrical. The desired outcome is that there be some sort of deeply felt reaction on the part of the listener — either intense joy or sorrow or shame or just simple but enthusiastic agreement that shouts "Amen!" from the back of the auditorium. The more touched one is, the more one has worshiped God, the Protestant axiom seems to be. After all, how often have we heard that a Catholic became Protestant or that a Protestant has switched to a different church or denomination because he "didn't get fed"! But the true believer goes to church in order to worship God, not to feel moved. Not Me, but Thee.

The standard for worship is certainly set by God Himself. In Hebrews 12:28, St. Paul says: "Let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe." Gee, read that again. He doesn't say, "any worship, with shouts of joy and clapping of hands." He says it must be done in reverence and awe. Also, Paul emphasizes that the worship ought to be acceptable. This means that some worship is not acceptable. How to decide? Whom to trust on the matter? You can choose between the Protestant notion of "each believer decides for himself" (whence Paul's admonition in Heb. 12:28 would make no sense at all) and the Catholic notion of "listen to the Apostles and their successors," for they speak for Christ (see Lk. 10:16; 2 Cor. 5:20).

Here's the Catholic position, then. Since we're all imperfect, sinful, and totally dependent on Christ, we ourselves, no matter how much we might try, could not possibly worship God in a pleasing fashion. Think about it: God is infinite. He deserves infinite honor, glory, and worship. No creature could possibly give Him His due since all creatures are, by definition, finite. The ceremonial laws of the Old Testament were great, but by no means sufficient. God wanted to be worshiped by man in a particular fashion. Though the lambs and goats could never really take away sins (see Heb. 10:4,11), this is how God wanted man to make atonement for his sins under the Old Covenant. But now we're under a New Covenant, which is everlasting and a perfection of the Old. Through Christ, God is worshiped infinitely and perfectly. The Sacrifice of the Cross gives God His due! Hence, it follows that if we want to worship God in an acceptable fashion, as Paul commands us, we must somehow unite ourselves to that Sacrifice of Christ.

How? Through the Mass, which is the same Sacrifice made available to us here and now! No wonder the Church requires the faithful to go to Mass weekly! It is through Holy Communion (a visible sign conferring grace) that the believer unites himself with the Lord. No relying on fuzzy feelings, mustering a sense of faith, dramatic sermons, or "worship music." No, here we have something much more profound, something absolutely inimitable: a visible union between Christ and the believer. No shouting, dancing, or clapping can possibly trump that.

The Church teaches that the "chief fruit of the Eucharist is an intrinsic union of the recipient with Christ" (Ludwig Ott in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 394). Jesus affirmed this most eloquently: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (Jn. 6:57). Through Christ's Sacrifice, God is given infinite worship, and hence he who unites himself to that Sacrifice can worship God in an acceptable way, in the way He wants to be worshiped. "The sacrifice of the Mass…is always pleasing to God" (Ott, p. 413). That this is true is obvious since the true priest and victim of the Mass is Christ, who, on the Cross, was both priest and victim (see Heb. 7:26).

Now, all of this will raise some Protestant eyebrows. We often hear the argument that since the Mass is not a bloody but an unbloody Sacrifice, it cannot take away sins and therefore can't be the same as that of the Cross; after all, we read in Hebrews 9:22: "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." Thus, many Protestants conclude and triumphantly exclaim: "Look, your very own Bible condemns your Mass! It cannot take away sins if it's not bloody!" Gee, what happened here? Have Catholics overlooked this passage for 2,000 years? Are Protestants the first to have discovered Hebrews 9:22?

Actually, the Church wrote the Bible, compiled the Bible, and therefore interprets the Bible. It would be foolish to believe either that the Church was not aware of this passage, or that she teaches something contrary to Holy Scripture. So let's recapitulate: We've already seen that the Church insists that the Sacrifice of our Lord is one. It is unique and was done once and for all: "We have been consecrated through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Heb. 10:10). The Church teaches that the Sacrifice of the Mass is identical to that of the Cross; it is not a different one; in fact, it could not be because this would imply that Christ's Sacrifice is defective, whereas both the Bible and the Church clearly teach the opposite: "Where there is forgiveness of [sins through Christ], there is no longer any offering for sin" (Heb. 10:18); "The satisfaction which Jesus Christ has in an admirable manner made to God the Father for our sins is full and complete" (Catechism of the Council of Trent, Article IV).

Mass and Cross being the one Sacrifice of Christ, then, we must ask ourselves: What is the nature of that Sacrifice? Is it bloody or unbloody? Clearly, Christ's Sacrifice was bloody! After all, He shed His most precious Blood on our behalf (see Rom. 3:25, Eph. 1:7, etc.). In its essence, then, Christ's Sacrifice is bloody. What is different at Mass is the mode or manner of offering. It is to this sense that the Catholic refers when he says that the Mass is un-bloody. But in the Mass, bread and wine transubstantiate into the Body and Blood of Christ. So obviously, in that sense, the Mass is a bloody Sacrifice. It does (and must) contain the true Body and Blood of Christ, otherwise it could hardly be identical to the Sacrifice on Calvary. However, whereas on Calvary, Christ died and shed His Blood in a unique way, in the Mass our Lord mystically renews His death and Body-and-Blood Sacrifice in a sacramental way, not under the appearance of His Body and Blood, as on the Cross, but under the appearance of bread and wine; hence the manner of offering at the Mass is unbloody. It is bloody in the sense that it is the Body and Blood of Christ, but unbloody in the sense that it is offered under the appearance of bread and wine in a sacramental fashion.

Christ does not suffer again or die again in the Mass; however, He does renew His already completed suffering and death on the Cross. Protestant Eric Svendsen wonders just what this means: "It is difficult to know just what the real difference is between a re-presenting of Christ's sacrifice and a re-sacrificing of him." Let's help Mr. Svendsen out here: A sacrificial action is clearly characterized by the killing of the victim. For there to be a new or another sacrifice, there would have to be a new killing. At Mass, no killing takes place, so it cannot be a re-sacrificing of Christ. What, then, does it mean to re-present or mystically renew the Sacrifice of Calvary? It means that we once again take the already sacrificed Christ, hold Him up to the Father, and say, "Father, look upon the Lamb that was slain for our sake. Through this holy and perfect Sacrifice, pardon our sins, and turn Your wrath away from us; be appeased by the pleasing odor of this unblemished Lamb." In order to do this, obviously, Christ must be made present again — which is why the priest transubstantiates the bread and wine into Christ's Body and Blood.

This may all seem rather overwhelming due to the complicated theological matter. But let us remember that, being earthly creatures, we are always confined to a limited view of the truth and to expressing what we know about this truth in human and finite words. We must always keep in mind that we're dealing with mystery — a mystery that cannot be completely understood from this side of Heaven.

The Sacrifice of the Mass was prophesied in the Scriptures, most notably in Malachi 1:11: "From the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts" (italics added). How privileged are we who receive the sacramental Body and Blood of our Savior; it is as though we were at the Cross 2,000 years ago! "Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need" (Heb. 4:16). 


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiccaucus; catholicchurch; eucharist; holymass; jesuschrist; john6; realpresence
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To: RnMomof7
"The best evidence points to the overwhelming probability that the unbelieving Jews had misunderstood the metaphorical and spiritual intent of Jesus’ words and that Jesus almost certainly would not have corrected their misunderstanding."

Save that "best evidence" wasn't seen for well over 1,400 years. The Real Presence was noted and accepted by every Council of the Church from the Death and Resurection of Our Lord until the heresy and apostasy of Luther and well after that and until today in both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church. Who to believe? Christ or a heretic?

41 posted on 06/22/2002 9:27:22 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses
I honestly believe it is a simplistic reading of scripture that comes up with the doctrine of the real presence..It is rather like the Mormons readings that God has a mans physical body...a failure to understand the oriential style of speech...

it is not a "fatal " error IMHO that is it does not block salvation..so I do not really usually chose to discuss it

I do think that putting your faith in rituals and symbols for salvation is a fatal error. There is only one Savior, only one sacrifice, only one shedding of blood for salvation..

It is by faith ye are saved not by works lest any man boast...

42 posted on 06/22/2002 9:38:10 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
"It is by faith ye are saved not by works lest any man boast..."

So my faith leads me to believe the Lord as have billions over 2,000 years. My works subtract not from that faith. I was validly baptised, I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior and I am a faithful Catholic. How am I less than you in His eyes?

43 posted on 06/22/2002 9:43:04 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses
I did not say you were less. I made a faith statement..If you accept the finished work of the cross and know with absolutely certainty that you are saved then you have met the biblical requirments for salvation

Too many say I am saved by grace + something else

Works that flow from our salvation are pleasing to God..we only get into trouble if we think we MUST do anything to be saved other than repent and believe

44 posted on 06/22/2002 9:55:33 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: narses
Not to even mention that there are thousands and thousands of priests, and bishops. How could one man know them all!

45 posted on 06/22/2002 10:27:03 PM PDT by tiki
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To: narses
We speak of h Real Presence of Christ. In an sense, what happens is that we somehow are ourselves made present at Calvary. At mass we mystically stand at the foot of the cross. The question is, however, do we look up with shame, or indifference, or even with a certain resentment?
46 posted on 06/22/2002 10:38:32 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: RnMomof7
It is by faith ye are saved not by works lest any man boast...

According to that statement, then, the following would hold true:

"I am a former Catholic who was recently saved through the Grace of Jesus Christ. All my life I knew I was a homosexual. The Catholic Church told me that I had to refrain from what I was in order to be saved! I never knew that my good works meant nothing! To think, I would have spent my entire life struggling not to engage in homosexual activity, just to wind up in Hell! I now realize that Salvation is through the finished work of Christ ALONE, and not from good works. I am now living as an active homosexual in the freedom of Jesus Christ!"

47 posted on 06/23/2002 3:32:33 AM PDT by NYer
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To: RnMomof7; narses; sitetest
“Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” (John 6:52)

From the Apologia site:

All of these Old Testament sacrifices prefigure the New Testament Sacrifices instituted by Christ from Maundy Thursday (the day before Good Friday) and His Crucifixion (actually the same day by Jewish reckoning, from sunset to sunset). He'd told his disciples beforehand that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood; that He was understood to mean this literally is obvious when one reads that people were offended, disgusted! They were so revolted, that many walked away -- but Jesus didn't stop them and clarify, "You idiots, you misunderstand! I speak in spiritual terms and am not talking literally!" No. What He did was let them go:

John 6:51-69
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing 1: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

The Sacrifice of the Mass/Divine Liturgy and the Eucharist


48 posted on 06/23/2002 3:49:54 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
HE SAID he was saved...the Bible tells us clearly that a tree is known by its fruit..

Can a homosexual be saved ..YES..we are all sinners.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Jesus did not come for the righteous

We only think that somehow weare more worthy than someone else but the truth is

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

The problem is we measure ourselves against each other instead of against a Holy God

Rom 3:10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Jesus died to save sinners, homosexuals are sinners..just as i am a sinner.

What I would expect of a Homosexual would be that God would replace his heart and turn his heart from that sin..I would expect to see fruit that are worthy of repentance..true repentance means turning from your sin..

So to make a long story short if someone tells me they are saved but there is an unchanged heart...could be that HE SAYS it...that does not make it so!

Have a blessed Sunday

49 posted on 06/23/2002 5:22:02 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: NYer
What was the bread of life to the Jews?
50 posted on 06/23/2002 5:23:30 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
What was the bread of life to the Jews?

Melchizedek's bread and wine, korban todah, korban pesach, the sacrifice of the red heifer, the Old Testament manna and the New Testament True Bread from Heaven, Malachi's "pure offering" -- all these sacrificial effects, gifts, and prophecies were brought together when Christ instituted the Mass at His Last Supper and then, on that same Jewish day, shed His blood for the remission of sin. At the Sacrifice of the Mass, we eat the body of Christ in a form whose "accidents" look like bread and wine after the order of Melchizedek, and whose very name, "Eucharist," means "Thanksgiving" (todah) -- as He commanded us to do. St. John the Divine's vision of our Lord, glorified and ascended, is that of a "Lamb as it had been slain" (Revelation 5:6) in a Heaven with an altar (Revelation 8:3), where He offers Himself to us in "hidden manna" (Revelation 2:17), the Eucharist.

51 posted on 06/23/2002 6:35:20 AM PDT by NYer
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To: RnMomof7
So to make a long story short if someone tells me they are saved but there is an unchanged heart ...could be that HE SAYS it...that does not make it so!

So then you would agree with

Matthew 7:21
Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

or
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind [It doesn't say "unless these people have had the experiences of "feeling saved" or having been born again.]

52 posted on 06/23/2002 6:52:47 AM PDT by NYer
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To: RnMomof7
"IMHO a bloodless "sacrifice "is not pleasing to God...like the sacrifice offerd by Cain it is not the one demanded by God it is an invention of man ! Jesus said "It is finished" and it is !"

RN, why not let Catholics worship in Peace? I know the Catholics on these threads are not going to renounce their Faith in the Catholic Church established by Jesus. I think all of us know you did and you must live with the consequences.I am happy to let you be at peace in your decision. Please extend that christian charity towards others.

I don't harbor any illusions you will recant your very public break with your former Communion and I think you err in judging that others are like you used to be. Please, leave Catholics alone. I do not care to hear your personal opinions about our innumerable heresies, false practices, superstitions etc.

Please show confidence in your decision and rest easy in it. Harassing others in your former Communion seems to be a particularly "formerly-Catholic" characteristic. My wife is a former Congregationalist and she harbors no animosity or ill will against her former Communion.

My wife made her own Rosary and prays it daily, she goes to Mass and receives the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus but she doesn't go and harass current Congregationalists about their many errors etc. My wife gives them the benefit of the doubt in thinking they are acting in good faith and prays for their growth into fullness.

The same goes for Scott Hahn and MILLIONS of former protestants. They don't go to protestant threads and berate them for their presumed heresies etc and claim that God doesn't accept this or that and that He is insulted by their worship.

Why is it that former Catholics are so riven with animosity?

RNmom, your "witness" appears to be self-incrimination too frequently. Let it go...You left and you are happy you left. Let us also be happy - happy that you left and happy that we didn't.
53 posted on 06/23/2002 7:39:03 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: RnMomof7
From above:

What is different at Mass is the mode or manner of offering. It is to this sense that the Catholic refers when he says that the Mass is un-bloody. But in the Mass, bread and wine transubstantiate into the Body and Blood of Christ. So obviously, in that sense, the Mass is a bloody Sacrifice. It does (and must) contain the true Body and Blood of Christ, otherwise it could hardly be identical to the Sacrifice on Calvary. However, whereas on Calvary, Christ died and shed His Blood in a unique way, in the Mass our Lord mystically renews His death and Body-and-Blood Sacrifice in a sacramental way, not under the appearance of His Body and Blood, as on the Cross, but under the appearance of bread and wine; hence the manner of offering at the Mass is unbloody. It is bloody in the sense that it is the Body and Blood of Christ, but unbloody in the sense that it is offered under the appearance of bread and wine in a sacramental fashion.

Hope that helps.

God bless!

54 posted on 06/23/2002 8:42:53 AM PDT by Gophack
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To: RnMomof7
He paid the price we could not pay..it insults Him , and His sacrifice that men think He could not get it right and they have to keep repeating it..

Rn, we celebrate the Mass to unite us with the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ at Calvary. We are not repeating a new sacrifice, or re-sacrificing Jesus, we are sharing in the one perfect sacrifice. In essense, we are with Jesus at Calvary.

I think these sentences explain it very well:

It means that we once again take the already sacrificed Christ, hold Him up to the Father, and say, "Father, look upon the Lamb that was slain for our sake. Through this holy and perfect Sacrifice, pardon our sins, and turn Your wrath away from us; be appeased by the pleasing odor of this unblemished Lamb." In order to do this, obviously, Christ must be made present again — which is why the priest transubstantiates the bread and wine into Christ's Body and Blood.

I know we've been through this debate in the past, and I doubt that I will be able to change your mind on this, but think about it and open your heart to try to understand.

God bless!

55 posted on 06/23/2002 8:49:37 AM PDT by Gophack
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To: NYer
Exd 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

I would argue that the Jews understood the bread of life as the bread that came down from heaven and fed them in the desert..manna.

What was the complaint in the
desert? They were hungry and thirsty.They thought they were going to die in the desert , what did Jesus say?

Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Jesus identifes himself with the manna...and in effect says He is the manna Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Peter saw the3 analogy and the spiritual truth that Jesus was teaching ...He understood that Jesus was the manna and jesus was the rock from wich life giving waters flowed..

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,

==================================================

Jesus spoke it very plainly to the Jews

Read it as they heard it

Jhn 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Jhn 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

They understood that Jesus was comparing Himself to the manna..How could that be?

Melchizedek was a type of Christ A man, called and he offered sacrifices. He was a prophetic look at Christ.

How could Christ have "instituted" the "mass" at the last supper when your own liturture calls it the "unbloody "sacrifice of Calvery"

There was no Calvery at that time..there was no Bloody sacrifice at that time..

An unbloody sacrifice is not pleasing to God..ask Cain!

56 posted on 06/23/2002 10:24:09 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Gophack
I have no problem with the Mass being called a process or a rite or a tradition..But when it is referenced as the unbloody sacrifice of Calvery it makes the blood of Christ of no account IMHO...that is why I commented on the thread. I disagree with the belief that it is the actual body of Christ..but that is a belief that is not a matter of salvation IMHO..But I am always concerned when the cross is made of no effect..for that is a matter of salvation

thanks for your reply

57 posted on 06/23/2002 10:27:56 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Catholicguy
Just a discussion CG..is that a concern to you? Are you able to discuss your faith? This has not been confrontive or nasty..just an exchange of thoughts..

Relax..I think that all of us enjoyed the exchange..

58 posted on 06/23/2002 10:31:05 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Jesus spoke it very plainly to the Jews

Yes, He did.

Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have "to eat my flesh and drink my blood." John 6 was an extended promise of what would be instituted at the Last Supper—and it was a promise that could not be more explicit.

Protestants say that in John 6 Jesus was not talking about physical food and drink, but about spiritual food and drink. You quote John 6:35: "Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.’" You claim that coming to him is bread, having faith in him is drink. Thus, eating his flesh and blood merely means believing in Christ.

But there is a problem with that interpretation. As Fr. John A. O’Brien explains, "The phrase ‘to eat the flesh and drink the blood,’ when used figuratively among the Jews, as among the Arabs of today, meant to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation. To interpret the phrase figuratively then would be to make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating him, which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense" (O’Brien, The Faith of Millions, 215). For an example of this use, see Micah 3:3.

For Fundamentalist writers, the scriptural argument is capped by an appeal to John 6:63: "It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." They say this means that eating real flesh is a waste. But does this make sense?

Are we to understand that Christ had just commanded his disciples to eat his flesh, then said their doing so would be pointless? Is that what "the flesh is of no avail" means? "Eat my flesh, but you’ll find it’s a waste of time"—is that what He was saying? Hardly. The fact is that Christ’s flesh avails much! If it were of no avail, then the Son of God incarnated for no reason, he died for no reason, and he rose from the dead for no reason. Christ’s flesh profits us more than anyone else’s in the world. If it profits us nothing, so that the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ are of no avail, then "your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished" (1 Cor. 15:17b–18).

In John 6:63 "flesh profits nothing" refers to mankind’s inclination to think using only what their natural human reason would tell them rather than what God would tell them. Thus in John 8:15–16 Jesus tells his opponents: "You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me." So natural human judgment, unaided by God’s grace, is unreliable; but God’s judgment is always true.

And were the disciples to understand the line "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life" as nothing but a circumlocution (and a very clumsy one at that) for "symbolic"? No one can come up with such interpretations unless he first holds to the Fundamentalist position and thinks it necessary to find a rationale, no matter how forced, for evading the Catholic interpretation. In John 6:63 "flesh" does not refer to Christ’s own flesh—the context makes this clear—but to mankind’s inclination to think on a natural, human level. "The words I have spoken to you are spirit" does not mean "What I have just said is symbolic." The word "spirit" is never used that way in the Bible. The line means that what Christ has said will be understood only through faith; only by the power of the Spirit and the drawing of the Father (cf. John 6:37, 44–45, 65).

59 posted on 06/23/2002 10:56:44 AM PDT by NYer
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To: RnMomof7
It is good to discuss faith but we must be careful of sowing seeds of doubt amongst those who have not yet experienced the Light. Peace to you Rn and in all sincerity God Bless You .
60 posted on 06/23/2002 10:58:48 AM PDT by ejo
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