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The article is long, so I just posted the introduction and the 15 points which the article rebuts. For the full text of the article, including illustrations and footnotes, see the source: ORIGINAL ARTICLE HERE.
1 posted on 06/17/2002 3:10:50 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: VadeRetro; jennyp; junior; longshadow; crevo_list; RadioAstronomer; Scully; Piltdown_Woman...
Probably overkill due to the lead artle, but here's a few links from the famous "list-o-links" (so the creationists don't get to start each new thread from ground zero).

01: Site that debunks virtually all of creationism's fallacies. Excellent resource.
02: Creation "Science" Debunked.
03: Creationism and Pseudo Science. Familiar cartoon then lots of links.
04: The SKEPTIC annotated bibliography. Amazingly great meta-site!
05: The Evidence for Human Evolution. For the "no evidence" crowd.
06: Massive mega-site with thousands of links on evolution, creationism, young earth, etc..
07: Another amazing site full of links debunking creationism.
08: Creationism and Pseudo Science. Great cartoon!
09: Glenn R. Morton's site about creationism's fallacies.
11: Is Evolution Science?. Successful PREDICTIONS of evolution.
12: Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution. On point and well-written.
13: Frequently Asked But Never Answered Questions. A creationist nightmare!
14: DARWIN, FULL TEXT OF HIS WRITINGS. The original ee-voe-lou-shunist.

The foregoing Is just a tiny sample. So that everyone will have access to the accumulated "Creationism vs. Evolution" threads which have previously appeared on FreeRepublic, plus links to hundreds of sites with a vast amount of information on this topic, here's Junior's massive work, available for all to review:
The Ultimate Creation vs. Evolution Resource [ver 18].

2 posted on 06/17/2002 3:12:42 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: PatrickHenry
When an ardent evolutionist's life ends and he stands before his "Creator", that will be evolution's "final debunking."

"A foolevolutionist has said in his heart, there is no GodCreator."

3 posted on 06/17/2002 3:52:34 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: PatrickHenry
The fossil record and abundant other evidence testify that organisms have evolved through time. Although no one observed those transformations, the indirect evidence is clear, unambiguous and compelling.

After reading the paragraph above in the original article, I didn't need to read any more. The fossil record is one of evolution's biggest “problems”, and the idiot who wrote this "final debunking” article uses it to say why it is a law and not a theory.

No need to waste time going any further...

4 posted on 06/17/2002 3:57:52 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: PatrickHenry
I don't usually get involved in these arguments, but could I point out that there is a difference between the religion of Scientism and Science.

Science is a way of observing things, then codifying a theory that explains the observations. However, the same thing can be observed in several ways: such as electrons as both waves and particles.

Scientism, however, insists that only science can define what is true, and that everything outside of science is untrue. However, holding this supposition as absolutely true in itself is an unprovable supposition.

Until you guys get to the underlying RELIGIONS behind creation, you won't be able to discuss the pros and cons of the theory of evolution.

6 posted on 06/17/2002 4:27:46 AM PDT by LadyDoc
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To: PatrickHenry
What never ceases to amaze me is that on a supposedly conservative web forum, there are a handful of godless pagans who delight in stirring up trouble, and continually posting this heathen bulls---.

Hey, evolutionists and atheists: We'll just concede that you're smarter than everybody else. We can't touch you intellectually. Okay? Any chance you'll stop posting the man-descended-from-monkeys crap?

I doubt it.

9 posted on 06/17/2002 4:37:42 AM PDT by Gurn
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To: PatrickHenry
Please explain one simple thing to me. If we humans are evolved creatures from ancient monkeys, then why is there still monkeys? Would'nt they too have evolved into humans? Come on people let's remember that satan in the great liar, he will do any thing to deceive us.
21 posted on 06/17/2002 5:12:08 AM PDT by Ferndina
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To: PatrickHenry
Would it upset anyone if I still believed in creationism?
Sorry.
It's called faith.

No different from the dozens who believe that the U.N. is an impartial body dealing in promoting international civilization and justice...

28 posted on 06/17/2002 5:26:25 AM PDT by Publius6961
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To: PatrickHenry
Y'ALL AIN'T GOT THUH BEGINNNIN O' THE STAHHRT O' THE COMMENCEMUNT O' THE BEGINNNNIN OF ANY IDEA ABOUT "FINAL" ANYTHING--MUCH LESS THE DEBUNKING OF CREATIONISM.

"The fool has said in his heart . . . "

And eventually, foolish is as foolish does and shows up on prime time. . . in God's timing, that is.

It ain't over until it's over and it's far from over in terms of your arguments carrying the "final" say on the "final" day.

40 posted on 06/17/2002 5:44:04 AM PDT by Quix
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To: PatrickHenry
As usual, the argument never ends.

I believe God created evolution to serve His ends. That means the absolute hard core on both sides despise me (I have been accused of "theological Satanism" by one creationist, and a hard-core evolutionist likened me to a bone-in-the-nostril bushman who'd been taught how to wear a suit. IIRC, both of these folks are "No current Freeper by that name."

48 posted on 06/17/2002 5:50:28 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: PatrickHenry
Let's start at the top with the 'evidence' for #1.

In addition to the theory of evolution, meaning the idea of descent with modification, one may also speak of the fact of evolution. The NAS defines a fact as "an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as 'true.'" The fossil record and abundant other evidence testify that organisms have evolved through time. Although no one observed those transformations, the indirect evidence is clear, unambiguous and compelling.

The above is false. The fossil record, and in particular the Cambrian explosion, disproves evolution. That 90%of the phyla ever known should appear within a mere 5 million years without trace of any descent from any previously known species is a hammer blow to evolution. That no new phyla have appeared in the last 600 million years is another hammer blow to evolution. One also must take into account the numerous scientists who have denied that gradual evolution takes place due to the tremendous gaps in the fossil record still existent after 150 years of digging including evo heros Gould and Eldredge.

55 posted on 06/17/2002 6:00:49 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: PatrickHenry
Rebuttal ommitted to save space.
66 posted on 06/17/2002 6:12:00 AM PDT by kidd
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To: PatrickHenry
From the article

In short, creationists are not giving the scientific world good reason to take them seriously.

Why then this article?
78 posted on 06/17/2002 6:30:32 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: All

Some useful references:

Major Scientific Problems with Evolution

EvolUSham dot Com

EvolUSham dot Com

Many Experts Quoted on FUBAR State of Evolution

The All-Time, Ultimate Evolution Quote

"If a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what's the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all came from slime. When we died, you know , that was it, there is nothing..."

Jeffrey Dahmer, noted Evolutionist

Social Darwinism, Naziism, Communism, Darwinism Roots etc.

Creation and Intelligent Design Links


Evolutionist Censorship Etc.


Catastrophism

Big Bang, Electric Sun, Plasma Physics and Cosmology Etc.

Finding Cities in all the Wrong Places

Given standard theories wrt the history of our solar system and our own planet, nobody should be finding cities and villages on Mars, 2100 feet beneath the waves off Cuba, or buried under two miles of Antarctic ice.

Intelligent Versions of Biogenesis etc.

Talk.origins/Sci.Bio.Evolution Realities


83 posted on 06/17/2002 6:43:46 AM PDT by medved
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To: PatrickHenry
[Rebuttal omitted to save space. See the original article.]

I see why rebuttals were omitted to save space, if they are all like this one.

2. Natural selection is based on circular reasoning: the fittest are those who survive, and those who survive are deemed fittest.

"Survival of the fittest" is a conversational way to describe natural selection, but a more technical description speaks of differential rates of survival and reproduction. That is, rather than labeling species as more or less fit, one can describe how many offspring they are likely to leave under given circumstances. Drop a fast-breeding pair of small-beaked finches and a slower-breeding pair of large-beaked finches onto an island full of food seeds. Within a few generations the fast breeders may control more of the food resources. Yet if large beaks more easily crush seeds, the advantage may tip to the slow breeders. In a pioneering study of finches on the Galpos Islands, Peter R. Grant of Princeton University observed these kinds of population shifts in the wild [see his article "Natural Selection and Darwin's Finches"; Scientific American, October 1991].

The key is that adaptive fitness can be defined without reference to survival: large beaks are better adapted for crushing seeds, irrespective of whether that trait has survival value under the circumstances

From natural selection to adaptive fitness. Nice "sleight of hand".

84 posted on 06/17/2002 6:44:07 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: PatrickHenry
The ultimate debunking---evolution/evoodology---head shrinkers/witch doctors!
89 posted on 06/17/2002 6:48:31 AM PDT by f.Christian
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To: PatrickHenry
Beware of "Final." It has the ring of divinity.
93 posted on 06/17/2002 6:52:06 AM PDT by cornelis
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To: PatrickHenry
...the massing evidence from paleontology, genetics, zoology, molecular biology and other fields gradually established evolution's truth beyond reasonable doubt.

When a Scientific American article opens with a sweeping, bald-faced lie such as this, then the rest of the article may safely be assumed to be a worthless polemic, not science.

Attacking Creationists is a political act, not a scientific one, and it should be well-noted that the politics are Leftist. True science takes no political position.

114 posted on 06/17/2002 7:07:40 AM PDT by Phaedrus
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To: PatrickHenry
I have to wonder why I keep opening these. I guess I keep hoping that I will read something (posted by either side) other than retreads and redirects. The problem with the entire debate has to do with point of view, not with science. The point of view is usually determined by where the author puts his/her faith.

The Scientific American article raised more questions than answers (on the few questions I didn't already know the answers for). That's good from the point of view of scientific inquiry. If all the questions were answered the scientists could all go home and write computer games.

But the arguments till boils down (IMO) to two positions. One side can imagine natural events leading up to the current situation and is not concerned with the Origin of Life question. The other side can't and is. But imagination isn't proof in the positive or "a final debunking" and lack of imagination isn't proof in the negative.

Ultimately the question isn't whether evolution is "true" or "false". Ultimately the question is whether you know G-d. If you know G-d, you will find all your questions answered in the end. If you don't know G-d, it won't matter.

Shalom.

141 posted on 06/17/2002 7:39:21 AM PDT by ArGee
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To: PatrickHenry
I laugh when I see you self proclaimed scientific types obsessively focusing on the dreaded "Creationist". You dare not confront those who cannot be classified as "Creationist" but who none the less doubt the dubious claims of naturalists. The phrase "Get a life" comes to mind when I read these pedantic threads.
146 posted on 06/17/2002 7:45:14 AM PDT by That Subliminal Kid
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To: PatrickHenry
I think it would have been better if your rebuttal was deleted to save space.

Seriously though, I wish that evolutionists would not cling to their evolutionary faith with a cultish obsession.

There has not been a single experiment that has debunked ID.  On the contrary, every single experiment has thus far proven ID theory.  This is because all experiments, by definition, have been intelligently directed.  Of course, if you want to admit that some of the experiments weren't intelligently directed, you won't get any argument from me there either.
233 posted on 06/17/2002 8:52:05 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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