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15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense [THE FINAL DEBUNKING]
Scientific American ^ | 17 June 2002 | John Rennie

Posted on 06/17/2002 3:10:50 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

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To: PatrickHenry
If I understand your argument, it goes like this:

1. People use intelligence to conduct experiments.

2. Therefore, life on earth is the result of the Intelligent Designer.

Have I left out any steps?


Close, but not quite.  My argument is that since all such experiments are intelligently directed, they cannot show the lack of ID in the natural state.  In order to do so, they must remove the ID element from such experiments.

ID doesn't prove the existance of a creator.  But it uses the idea of a creation agent as a working hypothesis to explain niggling facts that are often glossed over or ignored by traditional evolutionists.  Similarly, Jay Gould used "punctuated equilibrium" to explain gaps in the fossil record.  BTW, ID doesn't prove or disprove evolution either.
941 posted on 06/18/2002 8:36:27 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: yendu bwam
I agree...I am not a literalist by any stretch of the imagination (though have been known to play that part as a devil's advocate)...I do believe (like you) that all the answers are in the Bible. The problem I have is with people who put way too much of their own opinion into the passages. An ex-friend of mine once added to the Beatitude "The meek shall enherit the earth" "in 4x6 foot plots. That ticked me off a bit. I have yet found anyplace in the NT where Jesus advocates killing.
942 posted on 06/18/2002 8:36:47 AM PDT by newcats
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To: PatrickHenry
"1. Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact or a scientific law."

Of course, you don't see it presented that way in the textbooks... or on TV. It is assumed to be true everywhere you go.

"One should always look for a possible alternative and provide against it." -- Sherlock Holmes _The Adventure of Black Peter_

I have observed that evolutionists always leave out inconvenient facts which make their theories inaccurate or even impossible... there are no facts which make Creation impossible. there are facts, which if taken by themselves, make evolution a theoretical possibility... however only if you leave out certain other facts. And again, it's really pointless to discuss because the truth is already out there and not hard to find, for anyone who really cares to know it.

943 posted on 06/18/2002 8:37:23 AM PDT by Terriergal
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To: Poohbah
And the point is that Deutsch (the guy I was talking to) was saying that EVERY word in the Bible was LITERALLY true and completely without error of any kind.

That's a little trick anyhow. When forced in a corner they will just say, oh that was meant allegorically anyhow, so it is "true in spirit", etc. You can't really pin "literalists" down -- not that any two agree on same interpretation anyhow. Yet each one thinks they have a lock on the one true interpretation. It is pretty comical, really.

944 posted on 06/18/2002 8:38:08 AM PDT by jlogajan
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To: jlogajan
I'm not big on helping strangers. I admit it. But it has nothing to do with my political philosophy of non-initiation of aggression.

But would you, honestly, be a better person if someone were there every day cajoling and reminding you that you should put yourself out for others? What if that cajoling and reminding succeeded and you did go out and help others more? Again, would'nt you be a better person for that?

945 posted on 06/18/2002 8:38:26 AM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: Diamond
Have you ever heard of an approximation, or rough measurement?

It's a red herring. First of all, the verse said made. It then describes some of its characteristics.

946 posted on 06/18/2002 8:39:46 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: F16Fighter
Behe and others can't live with fantasyland of Darwinism

Behe accepts Darwinism; he has a problem with abiogenesis

947 posted on 06/18/2002 8:44:31 AM PDT by Virginia-American
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To: yendu bwam
be a better person if someone were there every day cajoling and reminding you that you should put yourself out for others?

Actually, I don't expect or desire "help" from strangers (other than in an emergency or disaster) so I don't feel the need to hand out help randomly either. I don't know that makes anyone a better or worse person. I'd prefer to cultivate family members, friends and neighbors. There is some enjoyment in helping people you like -- and there is the mutual indebtedness benefit as well -- they can help me when I need it to.

Anybody bugging and cajoling me every day is going to get very irritating very quickly. It would make me grummpy and rebelious.

948 posted on 06/18/2002 8:45:54 AM PDT by jlogajan
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To: Phaedrus
With apologies for being off-topic but since you are superbly good at explaining physics, I have a question for you.

Thank you for the kind words! They'd give me a swelled head, but That Subliminal Kid has already punctured my skull with a needle. ;^)

Is acceleration mathematically equivalent to gravity?

Andrew C has already pointed you in the right direction by mentioning the Equivalence Principle. (Geek alert: the equivalence between non-divergent gravitational fields and accelerations--or between gravitational and inertial mass--is often referred to as the Weak Equivalence Principle. There is also a Strong Equivalence Principle, having to do with the question of whether gravitational energy itself also gravitates.)

If so, are there other equivalences or similarities that have been overlooked by the profession in its attempt to explain gravity?

I'm not sure what that question means.

Why would there be such similarity or equivalence?

Geometry.

There's a deep implication to the eqivalence principle that isn't obvious at first glance, and it is the essential insight of General Relativity. Einstein noticed that uniform gravitational fields behave like constant accelerations, and postulated that they were indistinguishable. Now, according to Newton, an object in motion will stay moving at a constant velocity unless a force acts upon it. From the point of view of an object in freefall, no forces are acting upon it, since it doesn't experience any acceleration. It doesn't feel any "G-forces" like a fighter pilot does when he banks. The trajectory of the object is locally straight and has a locally constant velocity, per Newton. But an outside observer does see the falling object's velocity change: it falls faster and faster, or follows a curved path. The only way to reconcile these observations is if spacetime is curved.

So once we postulate that spacetime is curved by mass and energy, and the equivalence principle follows geometrically from that.

949 posted on 06/18/2002 9:16:00 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: Poohbah
Even by your generous error margin, 1 Kings is off by over a full cubit.

It is not my "error" margin, it is the reporting margin chosen by the reporter, in this case the writer of I Kings. Allegation of error based on an arbitrary preference of rounding point is as fallacious and absurd as me alleging that your value of pi is incorrect because you only report to 5 decimal places. Any diameter from 9.5 cubits to 10.5 cubits would round to 10 cubits.

And the point is that Deutsch (the guy I was talking to) was saying that EVERY word in the Bible was LITERALLY true and completely without error of any kind.

When someone makes a claim like that, ANY counter-example proves him wrong.

Use of the word "literal" in Biblical hermeneutics generally means taking the words in their proper grammatical, historical, contextual sense, sort of like "original intent" in reference to the Constitution. When the words of I Kings are interpreted according to the plain grammatical, historical context, it is ludicrous to assert error. If the passage in question were explicitly stating a calculation or value for pi, then you would have a point. But it doesn't. It's just an accurate, general representation of a circular bathtub.

Cordially,

950 posted on 06/18/2002 9:21:30 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: Diamond; Poohbah; Junior
Have you ever heard of an approximation, or rough measurement? Have you ever heard of rounding to the nearest unit?

LOL! I just got done arguing this same thing on this thread.

The numbers in 1 Kings are quite clearly approximations. The point here is that, to a Biblical literalist, the Bible cannot contain approximations. Ten cubits means ten cubits, and thirty means thirty, not "about ten" or "about thirty".

I tried floating the explanation that the guy who measured the circumference had shorter arms than the guy who measured the diameter, but so far no literalist has bitten at it.

It's also fun to point out that the sign hung on Jesus's cross is worded in four different ways in the four Gospels.

951 posted on 06/18/2002 9:24:09 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: Diamond
...is like asking what is the length of an adult male's forearm from the point of the elbow to the tips of the extended fingers.

This is known as "the bird," and is roughly 18 inches (45 cm).

952 posted on 06/18/2002 9:25:04 AM PDT by Junior
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To: PatrickHenry
Here is a link at Fark.com. They are commenting about this story too. Farkers are a bunch of wiseacres.
953 posted on 06/18/2002 9:26:02 AM PDT by Gladwin
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To: Physicist
The point here is that, to a Biblical literalist, the Bible cannot contain approximations

It depends on what you mean by "literalist". See 950.

Cordially

954 posted on 06/18/2002 9:28:00 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: Diamond
The circumference is still off by over a full cubit.

Second, regarding your argument re: "literalist" interpretation: does that mean that young-earth creationists COULD be engaging in an overly literal interpretation of the first few chapters of Genesis?

I ask this because I have been condemned to eternal Hellfire for being a theistic evolutionist (i.e., God created the Universe over billions of years, using natural laws that He shaped, for His ends, and that that process of creation is ongoing, guided by His hand). In short, because I accept the evidence of my God-given senses and my God-given faculties of reason, I'm going to Hell for not believing that the Universe was created less than 10,000 years ago and in only six 24-hour days.

955 posted on 06/18/2002 9:29:19 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Physicist
The numbers in 1 Kings are quite clearly approximations. The point here is that, to a Biblical literalist, the Bible cannot contain approximations. Ten cubits means ten cubits, and thirty means thirty, not "about ten" or "about thirty".

Yeah. What you said.

956 posted on 06/18/2002 9:29:58 AM PDT by Junior
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To: Physicist
In that other thread you stated that in two places the Bible "gives the value of pi as being 3.0, to two significant digits." That is somewhat misleading. The Bible nowhere "gives the value of "pi"" or states the value of "pi", or gives any calculation or formula for "pi". Your statement here on this thread that the observations are approximations is accurate.

Cordially,

957 posted on 06/18/2002 9:37:23 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: Physicist
The point here is that, to a Biblical literalist, the Bible cannot contain approximations.

You seem like a pretty good guy, at least most of the time. :-) But to make a statement like that is ridiculous as you have lumped what all biblical literalists must believe into a very narrow definition. I know a lot of "literalist Christians" and not one holds to your definition. Many would call me a literalist and I don't hold to that definition, especially after years of studying the ancient cultural details.

Scooby Doo starts in 37 minutes and we promised the kids...

958 posted on 06/18/2002 9:41:55 AM PDT by scripter
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To: Physicist
"No one can explain the addition of code."

Where do you get that? There are several known mechanisms by which new genes are created

The DNA code determines what anything is. An amoeba's code will not produce a horse. A horse's DNA code will not produce an elephant. The is no instance of this code changing so radically is produces a different species. The code would have to have the ability to add additional code to move to a higher life form.

An amoeba does not contain the code elements necessary to be come a fish or a monkey. It does not have any mechanism to add the code either.

Like the 16th Amendment, evolution has never been proven to be 'law'.

959 posted on 06/18/2002 10:03:53 AM PDT by CWRWinger
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To: Physicist
Re your #958, Excellent, Thank You, I understand, SORT OF . . . ;-}

As to the "unanswerable" aspect, I was wondering whether gravitation and acceleration were essentially "one thing". Your answer seems to say that they are, geometrically, or at least that there is something underlying that is uniform. Now I'm going to stop here before I embarrass myself (further!).

Thanks again.

960 posted on 06/18/2002 10:06:44 AM PDT by Phaedrus
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