Posted on 06/17/2002 3:10:50 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
I think you heard the sound of crickets, if you were listening for any criticism of you. I guess he was warned and didn't heed the warning. I'm sorry for him, but...
Right, but things like mutations & other contingent events are random events.
Look, Frumious' claim that there are no real random numbers is basically the same as someone saying it's a determined universe because every particle's position & velocity can be predicted from its position & velocity the moment before. It's a useless, moot point. It's another variation of the cobbler's elves theory of ID: It only looks random, but there's really a supernatural being meticulously flipping the bits in selected spots of selected genes of selected organisms at selected times. It's utterly impossible to falsify.
I thought all Freepers (not counting comsymp disruptors) were automatic members of the VRWC. I'm not a scientist, but I still do get a small stipend from the VESC for my godless evolutionary evangelism here.BTW, my check from the Scaife Foundation didn't arrive this month
Hey! How do I join?
Younger than Strom, OK? (Grumble! Grumble!)
-Thanks
BTW, my quote of Behe came waaay after yours -- I believe somewhere on pages 159-161. Had he changed his mind by then about Darwinism? ;-)
The salient point about hermenuetics is that it is a body of knowledge that is parallel to the Bible. It is carried forward in the writings and experience of Biblical scholars. The Bible is thus interpreted not "literally" standing on its own -- but in context to this developed knowledge and expertise -- not available to the fundamentalist individual locked in his bedroom Bible in hand.
A "literal" Bible, one written in plain speak, could be self-contained and any reader conversant in the particular language as that of the Bible ought to be able to decern its actual, hence "literal" meaning.
On the other hand hermenuetic knowledge and practice would allow someone to deduce that Genesis is allegorical rather than a "literal" description of the science of the creation of the universe and man himself.
The hermenuetics of the Catholic Church is particularly wise in finally divorcing ALL scientific pronouncements from matters of essential faith. The Catholic Church wisely opened the door for acceptence of the evolutionary explanation for the origin of species.
A simple "literalist" interpretation, lacking the parallel knowledge base of the hermenuetic, cannot be reconciled with evolutionary science.
Also, I read ‘your’ articles for the first time (ala junior on this thread)… impressed… but you did have a different demeanor at the time.
At least, looking at your responses.
To be a consistent conservative you most likely do. Somebody who believes that "survival of the fittest' is the only moral law in nature might call himself a conservative and behave in a manner consistent with his belief by being a robber baron like Andrew Carnegie, a criminal of some sort or a nazi (or a cannibal like Jeffrey Dahmer), but the word "conservative" igtself connotes some sort of an effort to preserve the values which have guided human society over the last couple of thousand years, and it's hard to picture an atheist making any sort of a serious effort to do that, as opposed to merely looking out for number one.
A couple URLS came to mind after reading your post. You might enjoy the reading, even if you don't agree with all the info therein. Following are some excerpts:
----------
Social Darwinism
Social Darwinism: The phrase "Social Darwinism" dates from the 1930's, but as an intellectual movement, it dates from 1859, the year Darwins Origin was published. The concept embraces all efforts to apply Darwinian biology and evolution to human society. Given the fact that Darwinism rapidly became the orthodox biology and evolutionary science, Social Darwinism underlies virtually all of the social sciences. One key premise is that "the masses are unprincipled, dangerous to themselves, society and the planet."
There are two basic schools of thought regarding an "appropriate" response to this condition: (1) Laissez faire,--do nothing for the masses except that which will accelerate their self-destruction; and (2) exercise complete control over the masses, and at the same time refine the scientific means to "handle the problem of the masses" at a fundamental level, e.g., the genetic level. Historically, laissez-faire did not work. The masses proved "far more cunning" than the elites supposed. Thus, option (2) became the standard policy; in political terms, this option translates into "state socialism." State socialism is not the bright-eyed optimistic socialism of those who invented socialism, the "utopian scientists" according to Marx. State socialism is a direct political expression of Social Darwinism.
Suppression of Knowledge of Symbiotic Evolution
Suppressed: Symbiotic Evolution, i.e., evolution through the establishment of cooperative [rather than competitive] relationships among organisms. See discussion in the main narrative of Petr "Prince" Kropotkin's Mutual Aid--A Factor of Evolution. In the 1880's and 1890's, Kropotkin published a number of excellent papers challenging the Hobbesian Darwinism of Huxley et al. Kropotkin was ignored.
Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution, by Peter Kropotkin.
Why should you disagree with that? Numbers are entirely conceptual.
Do I have to point out to you that we are humans and not lions nor Silverback gorillas? Human nature is fundamentally different than lion nature and gorilla nature. We can consider other ways of life, for starters.
Moreover, the societies you envision are those with which you are accustomed. They hold values that you identify and treasure. However, you can see throughout human history the values that you now hold were not always present in thriving societies. It is not a given that men will not tear out other mens hearts. It is not given that all men are equal. If you do not believe in an absolute moral code apart from mankind, then human behavior is entirely due to mankind's "defined" morality.
If it wasn't based on mankind's needs, then morality would be a meaningless, arbitrary floating abstraction.
We are just a few years away from the Hutus and the Tutsis.
Huh? Why?
Do you see China? Do you see Pakistan and India? Do you see Myanmar? Do you see Indonesia? etc. Now if the moral code is defined elsewhere why do these same things happen?
But do you see people flocking to live in Myanmar? I don't know about Indonesia, but even Pakistan & India have had brain drains to the West for decades. I read an article on the Dawn magazine site a month or so ago deploring the fact that so many young Pakistanis come to America & don't ever want to come back.
Everybody's different to some extent, but ultimately there is one human nature. And I think that history has shown that there is one general class of society that best serves mankind, given that one human nature.
YIKES! What the heck is this strange posting form???
I got something I have never seen before as a posting page! Oh well, lets see what we get.
This is an important point. We cannot program a ‘program’ to generate random numbers.
Is the picture on a TV tuned to an unused channel a random picture of dots?
A very bold statement and one I have never heard an evolutionist make. In fact, the only example I have heard of discussed is hemoglobin. I would think we need some reference for the above. If they are duplicated genes they need to be the same size and have a fairly similar sequence. Reference?
Auto-preview in effect. Click Post again to submit your comment.
A very silly comment which can only be considered true if one makes the a priori assumption that every action one engages in is pleasurable. Many people do unpleasant things for a large variety of reasons such as duty, honor, country, family and many more reasons.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.