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To: Hank Kerchief;drstevej;Corin Stormhands; Winston Churchill; OrthodoxPresbyterian; rdb3...
I asked: "For instance, are all unborn babies and other incompetents consigned to hell?"

You replied: "Certainly not! At least there is no Scriptural basis for supposing they are."

How can you have it both ways? Didn't you previously say that God decides who will be saved based upon their "choice" to allow him to save them?

You're now agreeing with these Scriptures, then?:

"Yet before the twins were even born, or had done anything good or bad -- in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works [making a "choice"] but by him who calls ...".

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

"It does not, therefore depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

Are you now admitting then, that God (the potter) does have the perogative to take his lump of clay and to elect (make) some of it for a noble purpose and some of it for common use?

"Does not the potter *have the right* to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? ...who are you, O man to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'why did you make me like this?"

[Romans 9: 11-24]

39 posted on 06/17/2002 8:37:03 AM PDT by Matchett-PI
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To: Matchett-PI
Perfect segue to Hebrews 12:16-17.
40 posted on 06/17/2002 8:59:28 AM PDT by rdb3
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To: Matchett-PI;Jerry_M; Wrigley;OrthodoxPresbyterian
The inconsistencies are so ingrained in the Arminian mind that they defend their erroneous syllogisms even in the face of contradiction.

Either man decides his ultimate destiny, or God decides. If God decides for some, such as infants and the mentally disabled, then He must decide for all.

And if God decides, it has already been written because the mind of God holds all history in a single instant -- past, present and future.

41 posted on 06/17/2002 9:20:33 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: Matchett-PI
not by works [making a "choice"]

"Choice" is not "work," which any schoolchild could correctly tell you, but no Calvinist can figure it out.

Hank

48 posted on 06/17/2002 5:01:10 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: Matchett-PI, Hank Kerchief
Yet before the twins were even born, or had done anything good or bad -- in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works [making a "choice"] but by him who calls ...".

See, that is what you Calvinist are always doing sneaking in your own unbiblical definitions.

First, Rom.9 has nothing to do with individual salvation, but the fate of two peoples (nations) Israel and Edom

And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels, and the one people shall be stronger than the other people and the elder shall serve the younger(Gen.25).

Again, the scriptures refer to Esau,

And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness(Mal.1:3)

However, nowhere in Scripture is a choice considered a work.

Quite the contrary,

But to whom that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Rom.4:5)
It is that faith that is a choice and it is not a work.
49 posted on 06/17/2002 9:07:37 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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