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To: Matchett-PI, Hank Kerchief
Yet before the twins were even born, or had done anything good or bad -- in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works [making a "choice"] but by him who calls ...".

See, that is what you Calvinist are always doing sneaking in your own unbiblical definitions.

First, Rom.9 has nothing to do with individual salvation, but the fate of two peoples (nations) Israel and Edom

And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels, and the one people shall be stronger than the other people and the elder shall serve the younger(Gen.25).

Again, the scriptures refer to Esau,

And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness(Mal.1:3)

However, nowhere in Scripture is a choice considered a work.

Quite the contrary,

But to whom that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Rom.4:5)
It is that faith that is a choice and it is not a work.
49 posted on 06/17/2002 9:07:37 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration
First, Rom.9 has nothing to do with individual salvation, but the fate of two peoples (nations) Israel and Edom
And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels, and the one people shall be stronger than the other people and the elder shall serve the younger(Gen.25).

Pretty crowded womb there dec...

There were two individuals that would indeed BECOME (predestined) nations..but first they were individuials..one of which God loved and the other he hated..

  Rom 9:10   And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;   

  Rom 9:11   (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

PREDESTINATED You hate that don't you dec?


51 posted on 06/17/2002 9:36:55 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: fortheDeclaration;Winston Churchill; drstevej;Corin Stormhands; OrthodoxPresbyterian; rdb3...
See #50.

By the way, ftD --- Does God have the perogative as the self-proclaimed, "master potter", to make out of the same lump of clay (all of mankind) some pottery for noble purposes, and some for common use as he says in Romans 9:21?

Or do you think he doesn't claim that perogative over all peoples?

54 posted on 06/17/2002 10:22:00 PM PDT by Matchett-PI
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