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To: Hank Kerchief;winstonchurchill;OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jerry_M; CCWoody; the_doc; theAmbassador...
"It is very difficult to believe that Calvinists are not aware of their obfuscations."

Should obfuscators have a legitimate right to believe that their opinions (especially about who else is an obfuscator) should be taken seriously by intellectually honest people?

You wrote: "You never answered the questions posted by winstonchurchill, then demand that he find the answers in the non-answers you posted."

I was merely emulating Jesus' example:

And the Pharisee said to Jesus, "Why are you doing what is unlawful ...?"

And Jesus (wondering why he was asking a question that he already had the answer to) said, "Have you never read what [was previously written]?". [Luke 6: 2-3]

You con't... "Please understand that there are two who are aware of your dissimulation, and you are one of them. The other is not I."

And the Pharisee said to Jesus: "Please understand that there are two who are aware of your dissimulation, and you are one of them."

Getting back to *the subject* (what Luther believed), he understood that either God is sovereign over all things which comes to pass, or He is not sovereign at all.

If you believe that, would you like to explain how it is possible for God to maintain sovereignty over election yet not over reprobation?

23 posted on 06/15/2002 1:14:36 PM PDT by Matchett-PI
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To: Matchett-PI
If you believe that, would you like to explain how it is possible for God to maintain sovereignty over election yet not over reprobation?

I believe God is sovereign over both. I believe God determines both who will be saved and who will be lost, and He decideds how He will accomplish this, not Calvin, and He has chosen to make some of his created beings rational/volitions agents (for example, humans and angels) and as such, they are judged according to their choices within the limits of whatever ability the sovereign God has chosen to give them, and He uses that choice to determine who will be saved and who will be lost, and only those who limit God deny Him that power.

Since this is the clear Biblical teaching of how God operates, those who do not like it, and want to limit God to some pagan philosophical ideas of what God can and cannot do derived from Augustine by way of Calvin, Luther, Wesley, and others, need to be reminded God does not need to answer to Calvinists why He didn't use Calvin's scheme in dealing with men. Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why hast Thou made me thus?

Hank

27 posted on 06/16/2002 4:32:54 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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