Posted on 06/05/2002 11:51:09 AM PDT by sheltonmac
Any time there is a flurry of activity in the Middle East you can count on evangelical Christians to put on a good show. They run around proclaiming an "End of the World Is Near" gospel in hopes of scaring people into the Kingdom of God.
I refer to such Christians as "they" because I happen to be one of those evangelical Christians who believe that God is no longer dealing with national Israel and that His chosen people are those who comprise the church—essentially, all who believe in Christ. This may seem like a radical concept to those who look upon writers of doomsday fiction as prophetic geniuses, but that's what happens when people are drawn away from that boring, dust-covered, leaherbound Bible on the coffee table by novels with flashy covers and catchy titles.
When it comes to end times "prophecy," premillennialists seem to have a monopoly on the market. Hal Lindsey burst upon the scene in the 1970's with The Late Great Planet Earth. It became an international best-seller. In like fashion, the Left Behind series by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins has proven to be one of the most lucrative enterprises in the history of Christendom. Sure, these books are by no means examples of literary greatness, but the authors more than make up for that with pure, unadulterated prophetic sensationalism.
The success of apocalyptic authors like Lindsey, LaHaye and Jenkins stems from their ability to exploit the prevailing eschatological school of thought among evangelical Christians, that being dispensational premillennialism. (Thank you, John Nelson Darby!) When it comes to the end times, most premillennialists believe that all Christians will be "raptured," that is, taken up out of the world by Jesus Christ at his almost second coming. Those left behind will have to face the Great Tribulation, a seven-year period of unparalleled chaos which will also herald the rule of the Anti-Christ. At the end of the Tribulation, Christ will return—his actual second coming—to set up his earthly kingdom and reign on the throne of David for a thousand years. After that millennial time of peace, God will do away with evil once and for all at the Great White Throne Judgment. (How there can be a thousand years of peace with evil present I cannot say. I suppose it's one of those things that just works it self out in the premillennialist model.)
With all the hype surrounding the end times, it is certainly understandable that theological misconceptions will filter down into our political ideology. This is not a new phenomenon. In fact, ever since the arrival of dispensational premillennialism on this continent in the 19th century our national political position has shifted to accomodate this line of thinking, thanks to the efforts of evangelical Christians.
Evangelical Christian influence has been around since the founding of this nation, and the beliefs of evangelicals have spilled over into politics. Ordinarily there would be nothing wrong with this, but flawed theology has since given way to a flawed foreign policy, and U.S. interests have become inextricably tied to the interests of modern Israel.
Strong political support for a Jewish nation began in the early 1900s. During World War I, Arthur James Balfour penned the Balfour Declaration which set the stage for British support of a Jewish homeland:
His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.Since dispensational premillennialism had already established itself as a part of the evangelical mainstream, it was only a matter of time before U.S. politicians who had been born and raised in that evangelical tradition began to let their theology affect their political ideology. In 1919, President Woodrow Wilson signaled his approval of the Balfour Declaration when he said, "The allied nations with the fullest concurrence of our government and people are agreed that in Palestine shall be laid the foundations of a Jewish Commonwealth."
American politicians have continued to voice their strong support for Israel, though little has been mentioned as to why Israel is such an important ally. But that really isn't the issue I want to explore. What seems to be driving the U.S.-Israel relationship, as far as evangelical Christians are concerned, is the popular belief that the nation of Israel still plays an important role in prophecy, and those not wanting to be caught facing the business end of God's wrathful sword come Judgment Day are pushing for more U.S. involvement in the Middle East. About the only reasons we hear are that we have a "moral obligation" to stand behind Israel or that it's simply "the right thing to do."
Dispensational premillennialists typically quote the Book of Psalms when speaking of our "obligation" to support Israel. "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: 'May they prosper who love you'" (Ps. 122:6). This passage has been accepted by many Christians as a universal command by which all believers are bound to pray for the physical city of Jerusalem, lest they fall out of favor with God. Of course, that isn't the case.
While it may be good and practical to pray for the peace of modern Jerusalem, we should really be praying for peace all across the world—the peace that can only come about through the Good News of Jesus Christ. So, in a spiritual sense, Psalm 122 does apply to Christians today. We should pray for the peace of the spiritual Jerusalem, the church (Heb. 12:22), for the well-being of our brothers and sisters in Christ and the furtherance of the Gospel.
Many Christians, however, are too wrapped up in their flawed eschatology to realize that their first responsibility is to the church, the body of Christ, and not to a nation of unbelievers. As a result, eyes glance up in anticipation at the eastern sky every time Israel is mentioned in the media, and the practice of interpreting Scripture through newspaper headlines becomes commonplace.
It is interesting to see the ensuing pandemonium among evangelical Christians brought about by rumors of war in the Middle East. Believers ignore sound biblical instruction and start buying up extra copies of Left Behind to use as witnessing tools for reaching their non-believing friends. Christian columnists all across America crank out editorial pieces on the Jews' divine claim to the Holy Land and the importance of remaining steadfast in our nation's support of Israel. Jack Van Impe goes on television with an air of righteous vindication and says, "See? My latest reinterpretation of my previous reinterpretation of Revelation was correct! The time of Christ's coming in the clouds is fast approaching!"
Who can blame these Christians for becoming so enraptured (no pun intended) with the idea of being whisked away in the blink of an eye while the world is left to fester for seven years in its own evil juices? It is comforting for people to believe that they will escape tribulation when the end comes.
But ask anyone who holds to the premillennialist view what Christ had in mind when he proclaimed, "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place" (Matt. 24:34). Ask them what the apostle Paul meant when he said, "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham" (Rom. 9:6b-7a). Ask them why God felt it was necessary to establish a New Covenant (Heb. 8) if the Old Covenant is yet to be fulfilled. Chances are the answers you receive will be less than satisfactory.
The truth is that the covenant God had with Israel finds its fulfillment in Christ. "And if you are Christ's," Paul reminds us, "then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3:29). Advocating an "End of the World Is Near" gospel that appeals to gullible Christians and poll-driven politicians cannot be edifying for the body of Christ. If anything, it detracts from the work the Son of God already accomplished through his death and resurrection.
I certainly do not hold myself up as a theologian or biblical scholar, but it doesn't take one to see that the premillennialist paradigm is rather precarious. When a fundamental part of our foreign policy is based on a shaky biblical exegesis and championed by the very people who should know better, it gives one reason to question the immediate future of our nation.
At least we can rest in the fact that God is ultimately in control. His true chosen people, those who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, will not be forsaken, and the glory of the Almighty will shine forth for all the world to see.
Be well,
Nicollo
MAY ALL YOUR CLOSE RELATIONSHIPS HAVE THE GREATEST JOY, PEACE, FUN, INTIMACY, GREAT COMMUNICATION AND ALL OF GOD'S LOVE, PROVISION AND CLOSENESS YOU CAN HANDLE.
I don't have a ping list. Maybe after I get back to the States, I'll try and come up with one. If I recall your request at the time, I'll be happy to do so.
BLPH, [Blessings, Love, Prayers, Hugs]
I C NOW.
YES, YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT.
I strongly concur. THANKS.
BLPH,
Wellllll, a trainload of horse biscuits to any other "interpretation."
I never said that G-d did not change anything. My original post was quite clear that when commenting on what G-d has said, we must first adhere to the principle that G-d is immutable. My point in bring up G-d's immutability was as a starting point in the fact that He keeps His word. G-d's character is consistent with His actions (He is and has integrity). If He is immutable, then His actions will be as well.
This is what you stated in the original post #7:
1. The first principle for all Biblical understanding is that G-d is immutable. That means that He never changes His mind, and He never goes back on His Word. He promised Abraham a Seed and a Land FOR ETERNITY
What you did state was God "never changes His mind." My point is that He did in fact change His mind about man and destroyed the corrupted man from the earth. That is evident from His comments as recorded in His Book. It is true that God never goes back on His Word. I did not even question that aspect of your statement.
You are confusing progressive revelation with a "changing mind." G-d does not "change His mind". Having said that, I see that although you enjoyed pointing out what you thought was my ignorance to Genesis 6, you were not negating my point, which was that when G-d says something, it is a verily thus.
First, I never said you are ignorant, I was merely pointing to Scripture rather than making what you consider a speculative comment. Progressive revelation is one thing, but confusing that with God's changes in His programs with man are two different things even though it is true the new program must be "revealed," and often times not all at once.
I find your mention of G-d's sovereignty curious because your previous posts would indicate that you may not truly believe in the "Sovereignty of G-d" as it is most often described. Any Calvinist would bristle at the comment regarding G-d "changing His mind".
Not being a Calvinist, I'm not concerned about how others react, it's God's Word that counts. I absolutely believe in the sovereignity of God, but I do not believe He is involved in every detail of our lives and is controlling things, as many do.
For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us." (Heb 6:16-18)
OK, God is demonstrating the "immutability of His counsel," or His Sovereign Will, by "two immutable things." What are those two "immutable things?" While as the verse says, God cannot lie, He is demonstrating His nature and essence here, and one of His attributes we can all be thankful for is that He fulfills His promises.
Thanks, glad to know this.
Today, it's people as individuals that need to fear God. People in leadership are held more accountable, but nations are not being blessed or cursed by God today. In fact, we're told a number of times in Paul's writing that we are going to be persecuted in this world. There are three reasons for our suffering: 1. We suffer for having Christ in our lives, meaning we bear the suffering of Christ; 2. We suffer for the bad decisions we make; 3. We suffer because we live in a fallen world. God allows us to suffer so we can receive the greater glory, but He also helps us in our suffering to be able to bear it. Only Israel in times past had God protect, defend and avenge them. That's not happening today to Israel or to any nation.
I agree He's quite concerned with individuals and their acceptance or not of the Blood covering of His Son as individual's Salvation . . . howsomever . . .
Hati comes to mind. . . voodoo and rampant poverty, corruption . . .
The U.S.A. getting more or less what the masses deserved; did; asked for in Billdo and Shrillery . . . and the resulting worsening of the culture . . .
India, Bangladesh--rampant demonic idol worship correlating with incredible poverty, corruption, abuse.
We shall see before too awfully long the Arab nations disciplined in spite of their blessings of oil.
Nations wherein a majority or even a critical net mass of the population even begins to obey God's principles for living experiences the harvest of blessings from that sowing. Some of the central American countries with a robust Evangelical population growing rapidly have experienced a lot less of the junk El Salvador & Nicaragua have suffered from all the Marxist junk.
I don't know that God is as OVERTLY been cursing and blessing nations. But I suspect He will shortly begin to. I expect to see AUTHENTIC 100% ACCURATE prophetic types on international media stating clearly to nations and leaders what has probably already been told them in private--that unless they mend their ways, increased drought, quakes, etc. will hit by such and such a date--and they will. The Bible notes that God's watchmen in our era will have power to withhold rain. . . or let it loose.
Though I am not sure that I agree that the Bible says this, let me ask: why care about politics? Why care about who gets elected? If it really doesn't matter to God what nations do collectively, then why care whether there are no abortions or 1.2 million per year?
If God created government, and those who serve in it are ministers (Romans 13), why would God have nothing to do with blessing or cursing a nation based on its leadership?
Pretty simple, glorious truth.
Easy to concur. Thanks.
Though I am not sure that I agree that the Bible says this, let me ask: why care about politics? Why care about who gets elected? If it really doesn't matter to God what nations do collectively, then why care whether there are no abortions or 1.2 million per year?
The reason God is not blessing or cursing nations today is He is operating a different program than He was with Israel. Today God is forming the Body of Christ; He's not forming Israel, because He has temporarily set Israel aside while He forms the church, the Body of Christ. We all know that Israel was created by God to be a "nation." Therefore, her blessings and curses were on a national basis. While there were judges, kings, prophets, prominent people, etc., God was operating through the nation in forming the nation to fulfill His purpose for them to be a blessing to all "nations."
Since God is forming the Body of Christ, He is doing this on an individual by individual basis. He is not dealing with a "nation" or "nations" as He does this. As indicated in the earlier post, our suffering today is not the result of God punishing us or our blessings and prosperity are not the result of God blessings us, regardless of what man says to the contrary. Romans 8:18-23 is the best description of our condition today regarding why we suffer. Our relief and healing is at the rapture when we receive our glorified bodies. In the future, after the church, the Body of Christ has been removed, God will reinstate His program with Israel. Since that is a "national" program for Jews and proselytes to the Jewish religion, we see nations come back into play in the Jewish epistles and the book of the Revelation.
If God created government, and those who serve in it are ministers (Romans 13), why would God have nothing to do with blessing or cursing a nation based on its leadership?
God created government for the good of the population by having the responsibility for protection of the people and for the punishment of the guilty. Government, according to the Bible, at least that portion that directly applies to us, is limited to these functions. Man runs governments, and as such egos and corruption enters. That's the problems with countries, including ours when the government expands into areas God didn't ordain, which results in oppression, whether it be physical, mental or financial. Christ, Paul, Pete and John all tell us things are going to get worse and worse, not better. This will result in the Body of Christ exiting earth and the Grest Tribulation will begin. Christ will finally return to earth to rule and govern in the way God ordained. In the meantime, we suffer, but with hope in the resurrection.
This doesn't mean we shouldn't get involved and be concerned about our leaders and our government. We're told to pray for our leaders and those in authority. Abortion is wrong. We should be willing to take a stand based on correct Biblical understanding. But we should also be willing to suffer the consequences if what we do, such as protest at an abortion clinic, violates law when the law limits where and how the protest can be conducted. We cannot make our government, nor any government "Christian," that's an impossibility. We can write our legislators and engage in legal activities to make our positions known.
Got to get off to get some sound doctrine. Have a great day.
I haven't yet seen the two witnesses running around loose preventing and loosening rain on regions and countries. I haven't seen them murdered and lying in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days then arising and being taken up into Heaven. Boy if that happened in ancient times, it sure didn't make CNN or the NY Times! . . . or even the Flintstone press!
It's interesting that in our era of CNN their being Biblically seen of the whole world would not be a problem at all. . . especially with Holy Spirit twisting the arm of the CNN editor. . . which, given their thick-headedness, could be necessary.
But my memory has it that the Scripture about 100,000,000 million troops and the Scripture about horses are different Scriptures. I don't recall a Scripture about a 100,000,000 strong calvary.
I'm sorry you're perspective is so handicapped by being chained to symbolism for some strange reason. . . comfort?
. . . "'I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed
TIME OF THE END.
UHHHHHHH, I don't know how much more plain God could have made it. . . I suppose He could bore a hole and pour it in but He has this thing about free will.
8:23-25:
"In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked [obviously NOT talking about the U.S. or western Europe or . . . ], a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue [obviously NOT talking about the Anti-Christ because the Replacement theologians won't allow it], 24He will become very strong, but not by his own power [couldn't be by satan's power because that might mean he's the Anti-Christ instead of some pretender in an earlier era arrogantly stomping around largely in his own strength ], He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does [don't know anyone historically matching that overly well]. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people [Don't know any historical foot soldier fitting those criteria]. 25He will cause deceit to prosper [probably making Billdo and Shrillery look like rank amateurs], and he will consider himself superior [as in equal to God, demanding worship according to other parts of The Bible (mysteriously not the Bibles of Relplacement theologians however--or else certain eyes don't work when reading those passages)].
When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes [obviously that couldn't be at 3.5 years into traumas or at any other time fitting end time scenarios because Replacement theologians won't allow it. It sure couldn't be surprising the Israel's he's made a peace treaty with at the point when The Bible exhorts them to flee for the hills as he slaughters them between the porch and the altar and everywhere else he can lay demonic guided hands on them].
Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power [so, which of those ancient characters were destroyed by a sharp two edged sword from the Majestic Risen Christ in full view of the whole world--or some other supernatural way at the climax of history as we've known it IN THE END TIMES?].
Maybe we're reading different Daniels. The one I read has plenty yet unfulfilled.
How many times did He have to change His mind? The prophets foretold a suffering savior. The people tried to make Jesus King and He wouldn't have it. Somewhere in there He must have decided to have an earthly kingdom because according to your reading He changes His mind when He was about to be crucified.
Besides the fact that He explicitly said His kingdom was not in a place that could be pointed to, but within us.
How many scriptures have to mean something other than what they say for you to keep your view?
Throughout scripture times of wrath are referred to in the same way -- the destruction of Jerusalem is a big one that you refuse to acknowledge for two reasons. First, you want to use the prophecies of its fall in 70 A.D. to construct your tribulation period. Second, it marks God's decisive rejection of the Jewish nation as His chosen people.
Not to mention that the second half of Matthew 24 says as plain as can be said that there will be no warning concerning Jesus return, and NO ONE, not even Hal Lindsey, knows when that will be.
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