Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Jerry_M; RnMomof7
It is quite evident that not one of these non-Calvinist understands sin.

And they are all saying that Jesus suffered for sinners whom God will then turn around and punish in the Lake of Fire for all eternity. Thus, God punished twice the same sins. And they call Calvinism sick!

I wonder if the Bible says that unbelief is a sin....

15 posted on 05/07/2002 12:48:04 PM PDT by CCWoody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies ]


To: CCWoody
I have never seen it put that way before. That is a profound thought indeed that I need to chew on...
19 posted on 05/07/2002 1:19:36 PM PDT by Zack Nguyen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies ]

To: CCWoody; Jerry_M; RnMomof7; ventana; kjam22
And they are all saying that Jesus suffered for sinners whom God will then turn around and punish in the Lake of Fire for all eternity. Thus, God punished twice the same sins. And they call Calvinism sick!

Good point. That's why I don't accept the Penal Substitutionary Theory as the foundation upon which I base my understanding of the Atonement.

Here's Biblical Theology's Jeff Paton again:

We have insuperable philosophical and ethical difficulties in the way of receiving the statement that the guilt of the race was transferred to Christ. Character is personal, and cannot be transferred. Sin is not an entity, a substance which can be separated from the sinner and be transferred to another and be made an attribute of his character by such a transfer. Sin is the act or state of the thinker. If sin cannot exist in the abstract, it cannot be punished in the abstract. If it cannot be transferred to another, it cannot be punished in another, though a man may voluntarily suffer to save another from punishment.

While it is true that Jesus is our substitute, He is our substitute truly and strictly only in suffering, not in punishment. Sin cannot be punished and pardoned also. (in a court of law, the judge has only two options if you are guilty, he either pardons or he punishes, he cannot do both. So if sin was paid for on the cross, then the sin that He died for was punished and therefore, there is no need for God to forgive since the cause of justice has already been satisfied.)

In his presentation of the Governmental theory, Dr. Steele sees no division in the Trinity on Calvary’s Cross. The atonement is a provision and not a payment. The whole Trinity working together in God’s plan to reconcile man, there was no separation on the cross, for "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." 2 Cor. 5:19.

Further Steele says:

There is no punishment of sin except in the person of the sinner who neglects so great a Savior. Sin was not punished on the Cross. Calvary was the scene of wondrous mercy and love, not of wrath and penalty.

What is the inevitable outcome of the doctrine that sin was punished on the cross? Whose sin? If it be answered, that of the whole human race, then universalism emerges, for God cannot in justice punish sin twice.

Now there are several reasons why I have been unable to preach this theory of the atonement (that Jesus was punished on the cross).

1. It is not exact justice to punish the innocent.

2. Guilt is personal and can not be transferred.

3. It leaves no room for a literal and true pardon from sin,….. Pardon, being a gracious remission of deserved penalty, cannot be required after the penalty has been fully endured by the substitute. In essence he is saying, if it’s paid, there is nothing left to forgive.

4. The punishment of the innocent....would be wrong for man and right for God?

5. For if the sins of all men were punished in Jesus Christ, no man can be justly punished, either in this world or in the world to come, for sins already expiated by suffering their penalty. I lay no foundations for the delusive doctrine of the final salvation of all men.

In the Governmental Theory the vicarious sufferings and death of Christ are an atonement for sin as a conditional substitute for punishment, fulfilling, on the obligation of sin, the obligation of justice in moral government. The advantages of this theory are:

1. It can be preached without mental reservations.

2. It avoids the irrational idea that Christ was literally made sin and a curse.

3. It makes no dualism or collision between the divine Persons, the Father punishing the Son.

4. It satisfies the Protector of the divine law. Personifying the law and saying it was satisfied is wrong, Only persons can be satisfied.

5. This theory (the Governmental theory) is Biblical.

Here's another website dealing with the subject.
The Reformed Calvinist argues that by the very nature of atonement all must limit it in some sense—Calvinists and Arminians. But this is not so. The Calvinist must limit atonement to the elect or have Universalism, since all for whom Christ died are irresistibly saved. So to escape the scourge of “limited atonement,” it is claimed that Arminians “limit” atonement, too!

The New Testament theory of atonement does not assume, along with the Calvinist, that atonement and benefits are one and the same. It does not assume that atonement is expiation, i.e., that all for whom He died will be saved, but that the atonement (hilasmos) is the provision for all men, and that reconciliation (katallagê) and redemption (apolutrõsis), etc. are the benefits; and that the benefits are conditional and not irresistible. This requires no limitation whatsoever.

Thus, that all for whom Christ died are irresistibly saved necessi­tates “limited atonement.” But that atonement is an unlimited provision for all men as an act of God knows no limitations, is therefore universal in scope and intent, and cannot be limited. The benefits of the atonement —salvation and sanctification—are for whosoever will, therefore condi­tional, and must not and cannot be construed as a “limitation;” for the conditions call upon “whosoever will” to meet the standard of Divine appointment with respect to the benefits. Accordingly, “limited atone­ment” and the “conditional benefits” of the atonement for “whosoever will” differ infinitely in nature and can never be brought together; for they stand in antithesis, the one to the other.

It is therefore an utter absurdity to claim the “limited atonement” and the “conditional benefits” of the atonement are equals in that both necessarily “limit” the atonement!

We conclude, then, that “limited atonement” is limited necessarily; and that the “conditional benefits” of the atonement are unlimited necessarily!

For the rest of this article and another article similar to it, I would suggest looking here and here.

23 posted on 05/07/2002 1:55:43 PM PDT by The Grammarian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies ]

To: CCWoody
I wonder if the Bible says that unbelief is a sin....

Wonder no more...........



NIV Romans 4:17-25
 17.  As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."  He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
 18.  Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
 19.  Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead--since he was about a hundred years old--and that Sarah's womb was also dead.
 20.  Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God,
 21.  being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.
 22.  This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness."
 23.  The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
 24.  but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
 25.  He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
 
 
NIV Romans 11:13-23
 13.  I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry
 14.  in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
 15.  For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 
 16.  If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
 17.  If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
 18.  do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
 19.  You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."
 20.  Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
 21.  For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
 22.  Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
 23.  And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
 
 
NIV 1 Timothy 1:13-16
 13.  Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
 14.  The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
 15.  Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. *
 16.  But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.
 
 
NIV Hebrews 3:18-19
 18.  And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed ?
 19.  So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

* (This should be ALL our attitudes!!!)


39 posted on 05/07/2002 3:32:15 PM PDT by Elsie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson