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To: Jerry_M, Xzins, winstonchurchill, Revelation 911, corin stormhands
You cannot use this speculative area of theology as the yardstick in determining the difference between Calvinists and Hyper-Calvinists. I have known Calvinists who were supralapsarian, and Hyper-Calvinists who were infralapsarian.

Not if they knew what they were talking about! A hyper places the order of Election and Reprobation first! Then, he has God creating and the Fall etc. That is what makes him a Hyper , or extreme Calvinist, he takes the Decree as it is taught by Calvinism and does not blink .

You are entitled to your personal opinion, however I don't believe that you will find many who will agree with you. I, for one, find that "lapsarian" speculation is pointless, and don't stay up at night pondering these things.

Well, I agree totally that it is pointless, but the Lapsarian viewpont is brought out as a defense of moderate Calvinism.

The superlapsarians hold that God ultimate purpose in creation is the manifestation of His perfection and that His mercy will be revealed in the election of some and His justice will be revealed in the reprobation of all others. Thus far a solemn truth is declared, but they then advance to inconsistency. To reach their desired end , they claim that God first decreed to create man and then to place him in circumstances wherein he would fall, and to send His Son to die for those He chose for salvation. In this arrangement God is seen to treat the fall of man only as a means to an end. Men were elected or rejected before the decree concerning the fall and without reference to the fall. Thus they were not seen as sinners, but as creatures, as such were chosen or rejected without a ground for their rejection or without an ocassion for the exercise of grace....The sublapsarians contend that,in the order of His elective decree, God first permitted the fall and then determined the destiny of men from that starting point as a meritless position before Him. This conception does at least proved a ground for the exercise of grace and the basis for the condemnation of the lost (emphasis mine) (Chafer, Vol.1,p.245-46)

84 posted on 05/03/2002 2:07:39 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration; Jean Chauvin; Jerry_M
Thus they were not seen as sinners, but as creatures, as such were chosen or rejected without a ground for their rejection or without an ocassion for the exercise of grace....

BTW, I thought I'd let you know that your belief has God condemning an entire group of people solely so he can then grace them when the group he condemns will never ever commit a single sin in their lives. Don't believe me. I have your own words as my witness. I bet that Jean remembers.

The point is that you should be more concerned with your own beliefs than enter into any lapsarian (sp) debate with Jerry.

88 posted on 05/03/2002 2:22:45 PM PDT by CCWoody
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