Palestinians Go House to House Killing Israelis

Fox News Website ^ | 4/27/02 | Fox News

[TheLurkerX]

JERUSALEM

[Demidog]

Leave it to you to totally change the subject to some other incident and pretend it applies to the other situation.

14 year old boys wielding machine guns are combatants. 14 year old boys taunted into throwing rocks are throwing rocks at people who asked them to do so in order that they might kill them. It's probably not a smart thing to do. But I'm not convinced the punishment for it is a bullet in the back.

[Lazamataz]

You really need to seek help.

Psychotic, heal thyself.

[Lazamataz]

Leave it to you to totally change the subject to some other incident and pretend it applies to the other situation.

As opposed to you, who ignores two of three bulleted points? You are illogic, personified.

You raised the image of a 14 year old shot in the back. By showing you examples of 14-year-old combatants, I let you know that -- in that corner of the world -- 14 year olds are not necessarily so innocent as you would make them out to be. It is not as cut and dried there as it might be here.

Furthermore, your consistent embrace of the Palestinian position puts you in bed with confirmed terrorists, who's stated goal is genocide in the form of the complete destruction of Israel. You are on the side of people who happily, willingly blow up their children if -- praise Allah -- it will take out two of their enemy.

I am glad you post here, Rick. It is good to 'out' evil people who embrace horror. You are one such person, and it is deeply gratifying to me to demonstrate your inherent, deep, twisted evil to the rest of this forum.

[Demidog]

14 year olds are not necessarily so innocent as you would make them out to be.

I acknowledge that completely. This was an extraordinary situation that didn't involve one of those as you well know.

As to your "bulleted points" LOL.

I'm done with you Laz. You can't even acknowledge a mistake that you've made. When you do that perhaps we'll continue our lovely discussion.

[Lazamataz]

Tell ya what: We'll compromise.

I'll acknowledge a mistake your mother made.

[Stultis]

I have no idea whether or not it was a Jew that fired the gun or not and don't care. IDF employs Arabs too and the issue isn't the "Jewness" of anyone in Israel as far as I'm concerned. If it were green men from mars, or Mexican nationals, I would be just as appalled.

[[[ reflecting ]]]

Nope. Not even for a moment do I believe this, not even in the weakest sense or degree.

I've been reading your messages too long. Go and try it on the newbies.

[anapikoros]

NSA information from aircraft that recorded the event

The NSA aircraft did not monitor the event, rather it picked up the radio messages of Israeli MTB's. The American airman and linguist who recorded those communications, Marvin E. Nowicki wrote in a letter to the Wall Street Journal (16 May 2001) that the Israeli military forces "prosecuted the Liberty until their operators had an opportunity to get close-in and see the flag" The attack, he believes, "was a gross error." SOURCE and HERE

[anapikoros]

The attack on the liberty is the only one in the history of the US not investigated by Congress

I'm not acquainted with how Congress investigates but ten American commissions of inquiry and three Israeli ones have all concluded that the attack was conducted because of USS Liberty being confused with an Egyptian vessel, and failures of communications between Israel and the US. Those commissions are:

Those reports are: US Navy Court of Inquiry (1967)

CIA Report (1967)

JCS Fact Finding Team (Russ Report) (1967)

Clifford Report (1967)

Senate Armed Services Committee (1968)

House Appropriations Committee (1968)

House Armed Services Committee Investigation (1971)

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (1979/1981)

NSA/CSS (1981)

House Armed Services Committee (1991/1992)

Ram Ron Investigation

Israeli Examining Judges Investigation

IDF History Department Investigation

[anapikoros]

Do you believe the Liberty witnesses as to the evidence they gave at the Naval Board shortly after the event or what they say over 30 years later in support of their mates.

[anapikoros]

Your quote from Moorere dates back to 1979

It would be interesting to hear what the Admiral would have to say today since the classified documents have now been released and finally put down all the conspracy theories.

And the Admiral was a a very vocal proponent of the conspiracy theories surrounding TWA flight 800 as well....hmmm.

For the whole story based on the unclassified material see The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship by A. Jay Cristol

[Cachelot]

The world net daily article offered no forensics whatsoever to support the assertions.

You are a foolish baldfaced liar, or rather a malevolent antisemitic t*rd living your miserable netlife on holocoust denial sites (or worse).

The forensics links are here on FR. You either don't have the mental capacity to look at them, or you know about them and lie. You probably know. And the background is here on FR. To bad that your brains went in the dogfood.

[SJackson]

One source for details, http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_dura.php, you can find dozens. Check the arab press to a conclusion you'd prefer.

Netzarim Junction, Scene of the Tragic Death of Mohammed al-Dura
[IDF firing in blue, Palestinian attackers firing in red]

On October 23, 2000 Yosef Doriel, an Israeli engineer and former IDF sniper, spearheaded an Israel Defense Force investigation and re-enactment of the Mohammed al-Dura shooting. Their analysis starts with the fact that the IDF position was at a sharp angle, about 30 degrees, to the wall against which Mohammed al-Dura and his father were pressed. At an IDF base, a similar wall was constructed and shots were fired at it from a variety of weapons. Photos of the holes made in the wall in tests were compared to frames of the Dura film.

It was immediately clear that no firing by the IDF could have produced the holes in the wall that are seen clearly in the film and even in the one frame shown on this page. The holes shown in the film are the circular type made by firing directly into the wall, not the elliptical gouges made by shots fired from a 30-degree angle, as from the IDF position. Secondly, the concrete barrel to the right of al-Dura and his son effectively shielded them from the IDF. The pair could not be seen and they could not be shot by IDF guns.

On November 27, 2000 the Israeli Army released the report of the findings, accompanied by schematic diagrams of the lines of fire, second-by-second analyses of crucial portions of the France 2 videotape, and aerial photographs of the site. The report was immediately attacked by pro-Palestinian sources who denounced it without producing any contradictory evidence.

What is the best information now available about what happened?

What really happened may never be known. But the previously unthinkable theory, backed by considerable evidence, is that a Palestinian shot the boy in cold blood to create a needed martyr to advance the Palestinian cause. The event, including the Palestinian film crew, was staged for maximum effect. The boy was "just another martyr".

The key evidence is in the film itself. Not only the suspiciously round holes, but the sequence of events in the film show that:

Jamal al-Dura was initially not frightened by anything in the direction of the IDF. He and his son were safely behind the barrel and there were no bullet holes in the wall.

Jamal suddenly is looking right at the camera and there are now 3 round bullet holes to the left (photo above). He is now very frightened.

A burst of fire erupts and the camera swings wildly upward. This indicates shooting from very close by (not the distant IDF position).

When the camera steadies, Jamal is slumped over and Mohammed al-Dura lies in his lap. Two new bullet holes are in the wall, round holes, tucked well behind the barrel a point that could not have been reached by any firing from the IDF position.

The IDF removed the wall and other materials from the site shortly after the event, trying to eliminate the possibility of another attack, but also destroying evidence. Mohammed al-Dura's body was buried by Palestinians before an autopsy could be performed or before any Commission of Inquiry could be set up. The Palestinians never produced the bullets that were taken from the body so it could not be confirmed what type of weapon they were from. And it has never been explained how the cameraman happened to be in position, where his original unedited tape ended up, and who produced the many copies of the edited version that started to appear on TV right after the incident?

Soon after being brought to a Jordanian hospital, Jamal al-Dura gave a television interview in which said emphatically that his son had been "shot in the back!" When he learned that there were no Israeli troops firing from behind his son, he became indignant and replied:

Everybody knows the truth. The bullets of the Zionists are the bullets that killed my son!

It also came out in the Army investigation that the father, Jamal al-Dura, a Hebrew-speaking carpenter and house painter who had worked for 20 years near Tel Aviv, was "suspected of collaborating with Israel" and had been accused locally of drug trafficking. Could that be why he and his son were chosen for the mission?

In March 2002, a German TV network broadcast a report of its own investigation into the tragedy. Their work casts even more doubt on the Palestinian claim that the IDF shot the al-Duras and supports the alternative: they were shot by Palestinian operatives. Among the new details revealed by the German investigation was that it can be proven that the Israeli soldiers were stationed in low places, whereas the Gaza pathologist determined that the bullets that hit the boy were fired from above.

The former IDF commander, Yom Tov Samya, who headed the Army investigation into the shooting of al-Dura, told Israel Radio on March 19, 2002 that the army had erred in hurrying to apologize for the boy's death. Senior IDF officers who issued the apology, said Samya:

...made a very grave mistake. One day it will be proven that the whole story... was one big Palestinian production. And Palestinian propoganda has been riding on this for a long time now.

[csap]

It is good to know who you are...................

[veronica]

Weapons Accompany Worship in Jerusalem-- Newsday - April 29, 2002

'The flier thumbtacked to the The Shtiblach Synagogue bulletin board looks like the others posted around it, advising the congregation of schedules and events. Its message, however, is striking: "Worshippers who have firearms are requested to bring them to prayer services."

Asaf Teboulle, 22, an Orthodox Jew, does just that. On the Sabbath, when prayer replaces work of every kind and even using a phone or a pen is prohibited, he heeds the call to arms and tucks a black 9-mm into his pants. Lately, the pistol has become as much a part of his wardrobe as the yarmulke on his head and the twisted tsi-tsi strands that hang below his shirttails.

"We have seen that there is nothing that prevents terrorists from getting where they want to. They can get to a wedding, a holiday festival," Teboulle said after Saturday evening prayers had finished in this quiet, leafy Jerusalem neighborhood.

"It may not really fit to have a gun in a synagogue," he said, leaning against the stone temple wall, "but this is the sad reality now." Even the sanctuaries in the Holy Land have been caught up in the conflict.

Throughout Israel, congregations have watched in horror as suicide bombers targeted worshippers at a Passover seder and Orthodox Jews leaving synagogue on the Sabbath. In recent days, synagogues around the world have been singled out for attack.

With more violence expected here, the Israeli Rabbinate and the Ministry of Religious Affairs have responded by urging temples to have four to five worshippers armed with guns and cell phones at services and to station guards at the entrances. Under normal circumstances, religious authorities here say, carrying a weapon into a synagogue sanctuary would be inappropriate, particularly on the Sabbath.

With Israelis fearing that no place in their country is safe, the chief rabbis have issued the call to arms, citing a central tenet of Judaism known in Hebrew as Pikuach Nefesh, which compels Jews to protect life. A gun "is not really fit to bring into synagogue," said Chaim Kornberg, a rabbi and religious teacher, who belongs to the Shtiblach Synagogue. "But with the present situation, if you have a gun, I see it as a great obligation to bring it these days."

Even the ultra-Orthodox Jews, who live in insular communities within Jerusalem and typically eschew weapons, are taking up security measures.'

[Demidog]

Good for them. It's obvious that the government cannot protect the citizens. And I mean that not as a slight against the government of Israel but they can't possibly protect everyone as is glaringly obvious.

I wish they'd strke their ridiculous gun control laws which don't allow their own citizens to keep firearms in the home if they aren't active military or reservists which have achieved the rank of Major or active duty police officers.

[Cachelot]

Soon after being brought to a Jordanian hospital, Jamal al-Dura gave a television interview in which said emphatically that his son had been "shot in the back!"

Actually, it was very suspicious how fast Jamal was with that interview. And his story had a long chain of very, very odd stuff in it.

I wouldn't be particularly surprised if this wasn't just a setup, but a setup in which Jamal participated. People who throw parties when their kids blow themselves up wouldn't be above throwing the same kids in as sacrifices to get a line in the agitprop war.

[Demidog]

Look again. If the IDF couldn't have killed the boy, the Palestinians couldn't either. How come nobody has looked at the bullet that actually killed the boy and instead are looking at bullet holes in walls?

[Demidog]

Some of those didn't even issue conclusions. Wouldn't you agree that the committees that refused to issue a conclusion should be thown out as invalid?

[Demidog]

I would tend to think that any eye witness testimony would be most reliable shortly after the event.

[anapikoros]

The "Israeli art student spies" urban myth like many others proved to be a non-event. Sure there were a number (not hundreds as you put) of Israelis hawking phoney art door to door and nearly all in breach of their visas.

One overzealous customs officer put together a dossier on all the reports and he thought he was on to something sinister. Those with visa offenses were deported and that was all there was to the story that was gleefully pounced on by the "beat up on Israel" crowd.