The True Eucharist

Sapphires | Jonathan Cahn

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

And lest we forget with your changing of the subject and all, the thread is about the EUCHARIST. "Unless you eat MY BODY and drink MY BLOOD you have no life in you." --Jesus Christ At last check Calvinists don't eat HIS BODY and drink HIS BLOOD. They reject TRANSUBSTANTIATION, and hence Christ's own words and commands. 455 posted on 4/30/02 11:37 PM Pacific by oremus

Interestingly, Calvinists also reject the idea that Jesus Christ of Nazareth was physically composed of Wonder-Bread.

"I am the Bread of Life".

Metaphor.

[oremus]

What about condoms? Withdrawal? IUD's? Diaphrams?

[oremus]

LOL, you show your ignorance of Transubstantiation.

[oremus]

"I am the Bread of Life".

Metaphor.

As is so Protestant, metaphor when not convenient, non-metaphor when it suits your fancy. Jesus was NOT speaking in metaphors. If he were, he would have called back the disciples who walked away in John ch.6 because they were disgusted by his "cannabalistic" insinuations. He would surely have called them back saying "Hey guys, I only meant that metaphorically!" But he didn't, did he? He let them go on their way. How cruel of him if he were only speaking metaphorically.

You show your true ignorance in this way and so many others, but I am finished for the night, and you obviously haven't read the material I have presented for your consideration from which you might actually learn something, so I have nothing more to say. I do this for fun and for mental and spiritual exercise, you see, and I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. THE WORD is my SWORD, and TRUTH IS MY BREASTPLATE.

One day, I pray, that you will open your mind and heart to the Truth, for you have just offended an infinite God in an infinite manner with your "Wonderbread" comment.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I told you what the official teachings of the Catholic Church are - they are not hidden. If the other churches you list teach that these things are ok, well that's their problem - but the FACT REMAINS: THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT TEACH THAT HOMOSEXUALITY AND ABORTION ARE ACCEPTABLE. IT IS NOT OFFICIAL ROMAN CATHOLIC TEACHING. So what the heck are you saying? Don't lump the Catholic Church in with your garbage. It simply doesn't hold water! There is NO COMPARISON.

Your "Roman Catholic" church includes thousands of Individual Congregations which are Conditional Predestinarians, and are yet Utterly Apsotate on the core issues of Abortion and Homosexuality.

There aren't any Congregations which specifically uphold Absolute Calvinist Predestination, which are Apostate on Homosexuality and Abortion. Not One.

Think about that.

And, I challenge you: Do the Calvinists reject contraception, or not??? A very important question.

Generally, Orthodox Presbyterians are strict Providentialists (No NFP, even).

But "Dr. Kopp" has tried to call me out on this before.

Well, fine. I will answer -- Calvinists uniformly reject all contraception which endangers Life (all chemical contraception).

As for myself, I choose not to reject physical contraception (such as condoms, since you insist on making an issue of this), because I refuse to condemn my ROMAN CATHOLIC older brother for his usage of this sort of "delaying device" (I do NOT consider my brother to be Onanistic, for he DESIRES to sire children; he has just not chosen to do so YET).

But of you want to make an issue of this, FINE. It makes no difference to me -- I am (by the grace of God and may He see fit to Keep me) a Celibate Single; this matter does not even attend to my case.

But if you INSIST on making an issue of this, then fine. My elder brother chooses to take the Mass; he can subject himself to your arbirary discipline every bit as well, he doesn't need MY defense.

All that I would ask is this:

Excommunicate all your pederastic rapists first.

If your so-called "church" has even a HANDFUL of so-called "priests" left when you are done with that, then, sure -- you may excommunicate my Roman Catholic brother and his wife for their use of supposedly "onanistic" delaying mechanisms.

It's no skin off my back, this issue does not even attend to me.

[oremus]

Again, these individuals do NOT REPRESENT, NOR WILL THEY EVER CHANGE, THE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. PERIOD. END OF STORY. They are not little separate "Catholic Churches" running around, as is the case with all of the separate Protestant churches with their differing doctrinal beliefs. You cannot compare the two. Each has their beliefs: if *individuals* within those churches choose to dissent, that does not change the beliefs of the entire said church. Understand???

As for you and contraception, bravo - although waivering on condoms because your brother uses them - well that I don't agree with - it's still the sin of Onan and choosing to cut God out of the equation of procreation/sexuality, due to pride and lack of trust. Judging? What's worse, not telling your brother he sins and risk him losing his soul, or telling him in love as an act of charity? Judging is hardly the same as discerning that someone is in spiritual danger and calling a sin a sin. Who are you more concerned with offending? God, or your brother? As for your brother, he is dissenting, whether in ignorance or in rebellion. He will answer for that, and will be judged fairly I assure you.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Again, these individuals do NOT REPRESENT, NOR WILL THEY EVER CHANGE, THE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. PERIOD. END OF STORY. They are not little separate "Catholic Churches" running around, as is the case with all of the separate Protestant churches with their differing doctrinal beliefs. You cannot compare the two. Each has their beliefs: if *individuals* within those churches choose to dissent, that does not change the beliefs of the entire said church. Understand???

Again: There are thousands of Individual "Romanist" Congregations which affirm the Roman Catholic "gospel" of Human Moral Competence and Conditional Predestination, which are yet Morally Apostate on Homosexuality and Abortion. I can walk down the street to one right now.

By comparison, there is NOT ONE Congregation of Calvinist Monergists anywhere in the World which is Morally Apostate on Homosexuality and Abortion. If you knew of one, you would say so. So would any FR Romanist. But Morally-Apostate congregations of Five-Point Calvinists DON'T EXIST.

I repeat that : Morally-Apostate congregations of Five-Point Calvinists DO NOT EXIST.

Think about that. THINK for once, oremus. This stuff doesn't just *happen* this way.

The Truth is in front of your eyes.

Yet you see it not.

As for you and contraception, bravo - although waivering on condoms because your brother uses them - well that I don't agree with - it's still the sin of Onan and choosing to cut God out of the equation of procreation/sexuality, due to pride and lack of trust. Judging? What's worse, not telling your brother he sins and risk him losing his soul, or telling him in love as an act of charity? Judging is hardly the same as discerning that someone is in spiritual danger and calling a sin a sin. Who are you more concerned with offending? God, or your brother? As for your brother, he is dissenting, whether in ignorance or in rebellion. He will answer for that, and will be judged fairly I assure you.

Honestly? I am far more concerned that my brother will go to hell if he dies an idolatrous Papist.

A little latex between him and his wife (whether Rome approves or not) is nothing by comparison to my concern in that regard.

[oremus]

Generally, Orthodox Presbyterians are strict Providentialists (No NFP, even).

"Generally", huh? What IS the official teaching, exactly? Are you saying not all individuals of Orthodox Presby persuasion are Providentialists when it comes to procreation/sexuality? Oh my... how can that be???

[oremus]

Ok, OP, so you have the ONE, TRUE CHURCH - LOL - merely for the reasons you state, which cannot really be proven in the first place! (meaning how can you possibly know the personal beliefs of every single member of the group you speak of??? NO dissenters whatsoever? Hogwash!) Is that what you want to hear? You still make no sense.

I never said there were not dissenting groups in the Catholic Church, or in any church for that matter - but that's all they are - DISSENTERS! By no means do they represent the Church or what it officially teaches. God gave us FREE WILL - there will always be those who ABUSE IT. It's our condition by birth - concupiscence.

Papists going to hell. Like I haven't heard that before. Yawn. You're judging, OP! Judging is condemning someone to hell - BE CAREFUL, OP! Weren't we told NOT TO DO THAT???

POPE: HOLY FATHER

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

"Generally", huh? What IS the official teaching, exactly? Are you saying not all individuals of Orthodox Presby persuasion are Providentialists when it comes to procreation/sexuality? Oh my... how can that be???

...Because teaching the doctrine of total dependence upon God's Sovereignty in procreation is considered to be the duty of the Local Presbyter, not the General Synod. The Synods have simply mandated that the killing or endangerment of Life (a Decalogual or "Ten-Commandmental" issue) is necessarily an Excommunicable offense.

As it happens, our Ecclesiological lines of Institutional Authority are structured differently from Romanism.

Imagine that.

AND YET... There is not ONE congregation of Calvinists in the world which expressly teaches Five-Point Calvinist Absolute Predestination... and is yet Apostate on the core Moral issues of Homosexuality and Abortion. NOT ONE.

Huh. Imagine that.

The Truth is in front of your eyes.

Yet you see it not.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Ok, OP, so you have the ONE, TRUE CHURCH - LOL - merely for the reasons you state, which cannot really be proven in the first place! (meaning how can you possibly know the personal beliefs of every single member of the group you speak of??? NO dissenters whatsoever? Hogwash!) Is that what you want to hear? You still make no sense. I never said there were not dissenting groups in the Catholic Church, or in any church for that matter - but that's all they are - DISSENTERS! By no means do they represent the Church or what it officially teaches. God gave us FREE WILL - there will always be those who ABUSE IT. It's our condition by birth - concupiscence. Papists going to hell. Like I haven't heard that before. Yawn. You're judging, OP! Judging is condemning someone to hell - BE CAREFUL, OP! Weren't we told NOT TO DO THAT???

Faithful churches do not admit Dissenters on issues of MURDER and SODOMY into Communicant Membership. And if these Dissenters *should* make it into Membership, and yet continue to act as Ravenous Wolves... Faithful Churches (like Orthodox Presbyterian churches, for example) excommunicate the wolves.

Which is precisely why... There is not ONE congregation of Calvinists in the world which expressly teaches Five-Point Calvinist Absolute Predestination... and is yet Apostate on the core Moral issues of Homosexuality and Abortion. NOT ONE.

Imagine that.

The Truth is in front of your eyes.

Yet you see it not.

Hmmmmmm.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

For the record, my challenge stands:

Find a Congregation... ANYWHERE... which expressly affirms the Calvinist Gospel of "Total Human Depravity" and Calvinist "Unconditional Predestination"... and is yet Morally Apostate on the core Moral issues of Abortion and Homosexuality.

In turn, I will walk down the street tomorrow and easily find a Congregaion which affirms the Romanist "gospel" of "Human Moral Competence" and "Conditional Predestination", and is yet Morally Apostate on the core Moral issues of Abortion and Homosexuality.

You know as well as I do (if you could *possibly* counter me, you would)..... Morally-Apostate congregations of Five-Point Calvinists DO NOT EXIST.

Think about that. THINK, oremus. This stuff doesn't just *happen* this way.

The Truth is in front of your very eyes.

[oremus]

No, you sir, are blind. I see what you are trying to say, however, you are wrong, and you don't make sense. That's not to say there aren't some strengths and some truth in your church (I admire those), as there is in all PROTESTing denominations. But the fact remains: you are separated from Christ's Church. Throw stones all you want, it won't change that Ultimate Truth. You are at a severe disadvantage in that you lack several of the Sacraments instituted by Christ which impart grace for the journey. Do I believe you will go to hell for that? No. I believe you are sincere in your beliefs, and it seems you live a good, Christian life. You simply do not possess the FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH. Only God can judge your heart and soul. I do not worship or put my faith in any priest, congregation, or individual. My faith lies in Christ, and the teachings of HIS CHURCH as passed on down by the Apostles who were directly instructed by Him, and the Truth and the Faith protected by the Holy Spirit as promised to the end of time, and I am helped along toward heaven by the reception of the Sacraments which impart grace to my soul for the journey so I may fight the good fight and win the race as so many of the saints have before me. Truly we have not been left orphans.

Thanks for the discussion, I must go to bed!

[oremus]

Ok, one more thought. You speak of "admitting dissenters." What you speak of sounds like a club. The Roman Catholic Church is not to be compared to some kind of club. A person who is Baptized Catholic is a Catholic forever - has an indelible mark on the soul which will be visible even if in hell. The Church cannot know the interior disposition of each and every soul that walks through it's doors or professes to be Catholic. It would be virtually impossible to excommunicate all dissenters as that would require reading their minds. Their free will choices are between themselves and God. They are given the teachings and the tools (Sacraments), and they make their own choices. As for public officials or individuals, in the Church or otherwise, yes, there are occasions where they should be excommunicated for public dissent. Are there "congregations" which need to be purged? Certainly! Hopefully we are on the road to that, and that situation makes me mad as hell. But do they in any way represent the faith that I hold dear? NO WAY.

Ok now I'm delirious and lost my train of thought anyway. Good night.

[Wrigley]

But a certain kind of protestant who insists that everything be in Scripture has a very difficult time addressing any subject not literally covered by the Scriptures.

But is sure makes it easier to add many superstitious and non Biblical beliefs and hold to them.

[history_matters]

But a certain kind of protestant who insists that everything be in Scripture has a very difficult time addressing any subject not literally covered by the Scriptures.

But is sure makes it easier to add many superstitious and non Biblical beliefs and hold to them.

Perhaps that is true for some protestants. For Catholics it is impossible to be superstitious and non-Biblical since the Holy Spirit has been guiding us into all truth from the Day of Pentecost forward to the present day.

[the_doc]

Who was responsible then? Who would care?

And he DID state your position clearly. Clear as a bell.

[the_doc]

Ah, you really don't understand, I see.

[the_doc]

Yeah, I've already covered that!

[history_matters]

First:
No doubt a person with a sense of decency did. Decent people care.

Second:
No, he did not state the Roman Catholic position, but rather a parody of it in his own style which is not unlike your own.