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To: Havoc
The Bible is, as we say, the deposit of faith, the earth out of which faith grows. But if there is anything that is clear, the Scriptures were written down anonymously for the most part, by the disciples or Christ or their disciples, and only gradually collected over a period of two centures. The vast majority of Christians never owned, never saw, and probably never heard the whole book. What part they heard was in Church and always as interpreted by clerics. What they heard was never separated from the rest of tradition--that which was handed down from the first believers. The divisions in the Church, which were there from the earliest days, were always about what it was that was handed down. So if the Scriptures are a touchstone, they are also and always part of the debate. What WAS Scripture? What about Hebrews, what about Revelations, what about James, etc. What about Gospels other than the Four?
48,010 posted on 04/21/2003 10:03:19 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: RobbyS; JHavard; OLD REGGIE; Invincibly Ignorant; All
The Bible is, as we say, the deposit of faith, the earth out of which faith grows. But if there is anything that is clear, the Scriptures were written down anonymously for the most part, by the disciples or Christ or their disciples, and only gradually collected over a period of two centures. The vast majority of Christians never owned, never saw, and probably never heard the whole book. What part they heard was in Church and always as interpreted by clerics. What they heard was never separated from the rest of tradition--that which was handed down from the first believers. The divisions in the Church, which were there from the earliest days, were always about what it was that was handed down. So if the Scriptures are a touchstone, they are also and always part of the debate. What WAS Scripture? What about Hebrews, what about Revelations, what about James, etc. What about Gospels other than the Four?

What is your constitution and how do you know what rights you have. The Bible is a founding document that tells us precisely what the message of the Lord was. Now, The NT scriptures we have derive from the Apostles. All of them, including Hebrews are tied to the Apostles either directly or through the scribes that did the writing for them. That should be your first clue. The nature of the scriptures was to found the church and root it well. This is why Jesus and the Apostles warned to steer clear of anyone coming with a message other than they themselves preached. They had direct knowledge of the teaching of Christ. That cannot be said of many whome you call "early church fathers" and moreover, many of them were forged for political purposes and they largely wrote from opinion based on philosophy. The Apostles did not write speculative opinion based on philosophy - they wrote of direct authority. This is clue number two. Three is that the Apostles were largely of one mind - that of Christ. One of them was bent on getting himself in trouble by letting his will intrude where it didn't belong. That was Peter and that was dealt with. You don't have 21 volumes from Peter giving 22 different opinions on the same issue or waffling every other volume because his logical process was being drawn upon. No, you have consistent authoritative writings from the Apostles and they can be checked with one another and they agree. With your early fathers, they are neither authoritative nor consistent even with themselves - never mind with the Apostles. In a court of law where Hearsay merely could be damaging to your human life, hearsay is dissallowed. Yet with your early fathers, dealing with issues that affect the immortal soul, hearsay is just about the preferred thing. This shows that the seculars have more brains than them. And any idiot should be able to see and understand this. When one wants to know what the bible is, it is simply what is reliable and consistent of message and largely penned by the hands of the Apostles and secondarily by scribes on their behalf (such as by Marcus).

Whos hands do you leave your immortal soul in? Do you entrust to people who wrote 300 years after Christ and changed their mind with the blowing wind. Or do you trust to the Apostles who knew what they were talking about and were staunch defenders of the faith. Do you leave your children with the upright man whome you know to be upright, or with the man who just every once in a while abuses a child to death? Do you go to the doctor who always knows what he's supposed to prescribe for your heart, or do you go to the one who one in three times prescribes something that might kill you? See, when it comes to natural life, it is quite clear the choices that are to be made. Why is it that it is expected people should be less tolerant over what happens with their soul? What we trust as scripture is 66 books because we know the heart medicine is the right one. And, lest I be cited for not bringing it up, I don't buy antiques from a shop that regularly has forged reproductions going through it as though they were the real thing. A shop like that doesn't have a trustworthy dealer no matter how that is viewed. Why then would I seek as an authority a religious group who is and has since it's inception been in that same position. It is no secret that the Catholic Church has had so much fraud run through it and sold as real that one questions who buys anything they say. The Apostles knew a phony message when they heard it, but this group has discernment that works so infrequently that it takes science to prove the fraud because they just don't know. And that's being nice. Some of it was pushed on purpose. If there are other books, the matter of who is bringing them to the table cannot be dismissed as a matter of contention.

This is the reason the Apostles said to trust no man and to check every word. It is why the Bereans did just that and were applauded for the extent to which they did so. Your membership means money and political power to some. Beyond those things are perverse reasons aplenty for distorting the message that came from Christ and the Apostles. Who would have expected a Jim Jones? Jim and Tammy faye could not be viewed on TV and not be spotted for their cheesy phoniness. But people were shocked about them. I find that incredible. Their error was short lived and found out and put down immediately. Yet another group that will remain unmentioned (because everyon knows who it is by now) Spent from the 4th Century to at least the 1800s wallowing in error upon error upon error - institutionalizing it, from fraud to the use of the fraud in the name of God. Their leaders were plagued with every sort of foulness. Their doctrine corrupted by forced conversion of pagans and 'baptism' of pagan ideas into the fold. Dunking a person in water doesn't make them christian any more than dunking a pagan ritual into Christian appearances makes that Christian. Some just don't get it because they've no idea who God is in the first place nor do they understand what Christianity is.

Alas we all have free will and the right to choose what track we go down. If you are looking to be comfortable here, then none of this matters. You can read Budha and it will change nothing. If you are interested in what happens to your eternal soul, then making certain your foundation is sure is far more critical (not less) than what doctor prescribes your heart medication. Do you want the shoddy antiques dealer, or the one that you can be sure you're getting a Tiffany when he says it's Tiffany. Avoiding all appearance of evil has an application here - it means avoiding the chance of being sold a fraud. I call it erring on the side of caution. If it smells wrong and you avoid it, you don't risk your soul.

48,139 posted on 04/22/2003 12:18:25 PM PDT by Havoc (If you can't be frank all the time are you lying the rest of the time?)
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To: RobbyS
The Bible is, as we say, the deposit of faith, the earth out of which faith grows. But if there is anything that is clear, the Scriptures were written down anonymously for the most part, by the disciples or Christ or their disciples, and only gradually collected over a period of two centures. The vast majority of Christians never owned, never saw, and probably never heard the whole book. What part they heard was in Church and always as interpreted by clerics. What they heard was never separated from the rest of tradition--that which was handed down from the first believers. The divisions in the Church, which were there from the earliest days, were always about what it was that was handed down. So if the Scriptures are a touchstone, they are also and always part of the debate. What WAS Scripture? What about Hebrews, what about Revelations, what about James, etc. What about Gospels other than the Four?

Robby, let me compliment you on your fine post. This is one of the finest statements of your belief I've read.

Needless to say I disagree with you, but at least you gave a clear concise explanation of what it is I disagree with.

Thank you for your effort.

JH

48,151 posted on 04/22/2003 2:11:48 PM PDT by JHavard (You don't know what you don't know)
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