Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Terrible. Been too hot around here. Goin' back in about 3 weeks. :-)
I always thought that this referred to Judas.
Faith
Heb.11
1 NOW faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Might have been Invincible or 1 spark.
Yep, right on target!
I don't think I agree. God is not just an idea, somethign we KNOW from His Book. God and our relationship with Him, for good and bad, is also something that can be experienced directly.
Yes, feelings can be deceptive (but so can what we think we "know"). But God can reach out to us directly. This is a huge difference between P and C. I neither believe God only speaks to us through His Book, nor that it is the only way we can gauge our souls.
SD
The question now is whether or not you can know you are saved.
1 John 5:13 indicates that we can know.1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Yep. I already explain to Mal that I was using a sloppy shorthand. We have the atonement applied to our souls. We are nto doing the atoning.
And aren't you (and me) the ones who're always saying that God exists outside of time ?
Yep. But He accomodates us, in time.
SD
I suppose this is in lieu of an argument. I believe I made the comment to the808bass. If he has a problem with it, or any serious Protestant, I will consider it.
SD
For an example, let's use some of the pedophile priests. Are their works (pedophelia) the works of Jesus? Or have these priests utilized their free will to behave in an abominable manner? Are these pedophile priests saved?
I would not venture to guess the fates of these and others which have done similarly.
I am content to leave their fates to God.
That was pretty sneaky don't ya think A Thinker?
Ya'll got a Strong's definition for sneaky ? ;^)
Why? You'd just make up your own definition anyway. :-)
Nice!
Yes and no. Maybe it is a matter of semantics. But the proximate result of the crucifixion would be atonement, not forgiveness.
But forgiveness is only possible because of the atonement. So it is not the primary result, if you will, of the Crucifixion, but it is a secondary result.
The crucifixion, then, is seen as a redemptive, rather than a soteriological, act. Only when the believer accepts this gift does the crucifixion have a salvational effect in his life -- i.e. his sins are forgiven.
It is both and all of those things. Yes, the believer has to accept the gift, but the acceptance does not merit the redemption. The Crucifixion merits the redemption. These merits from the Crucifixion have an effect on our salvaiton, sanctification, etc. all through our lives.
The OTSASer theoretically holds that salvation is a one time thing, but views salvation (for practical purposes) in addition to sanctification as an ongoing process.
I don't know if I agree that salvation is a "one time" thing. That's the point. If there is "one time," it is when God conceived of the universe.
The first time (in this context) you ask for forgiveness is not the crucifixion, but when you first believe and confess. That singular point is the connection between the general act of redemption and the specific acceptance of the gift of salvation by the individual.
I don't believe in a single point, but rather a continuous stream of connection. Yes, there is a first connection, but it is not the only thread connecting us to the general redemption. Every act which conveys grace is another thread. Each time we go to Communion, another thread connects us. Each confession, redeems us anew and cleanses us. In countless other ways, when we allow God to work through us, we are tapping into this reservoir of grace and estalishing another connection. It is this multiplicity of threads that holds us to God, which is why I would never want to have a single point link. The many connections make us stronger and bring us closer to God.
SD
Lexicon Greek 1343 [ from the root of 1342]
dikaiosune {dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay}
1) in a broad sense: state of him who is as he ought to be, righteousness, the condition acceptable to God
a) the doctrine concerning the way in which man may attain a state approved of God
b) integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking feeling, and acting
2) in a narrower sense, justice or the virtue which gives each his due
Lexicon Greek 1342 dikaios {dik'-ah-yos}
1) righteous, observing divine laws
a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
a) only Christ truly
4) approved of or acceptable of God
b) in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them
Genesis 26
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
I see two possible interpretations here. Either you can't fall away (the OSAS position), or if you do fall away, you are damned for good, with no further forgiveness or repentance possible. I don't know of anyone who holds this latter position.
I believe that we're on the same page on this.
Oh, I agree. But His actual Presence is not dependent upon our feeling that He is there. The "spiritual dryness" or "dark night of the soul" of the mystics is not the actual withdrawal of God's Presence, but rather the withdrawal of the sense or perception of God's Presence.
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