Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
James says that Abraham showed his righteouness by his offereing of Isaac,
How was it shown?18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.Obedience.
Except that the issue is not how Abraham showed his righteousness," but rather, ...
... how Abraham acquired his righteousness".Genesis 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
For an example, let's use some of the pedophile priests. Are their works (pedophelia) the works of Jesus? Or have these priests utilized their free will to behave in an abominable manner? Are these pedophile priests saved?
You are saved Only Once!
Correct!
Scripture says that we cannot be re-saved.Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
I agree with you. The idea is that once saved a person should be sinning a lot less and eventually not at all. At least in my opinion. Striving to eradicate sin from one's life.
****
John 17
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Yes and no. Maybe it is a matter of semantics. But the proximate result of the crucifixion would be atonement, not forgiveness. The crucifixion, then, is seen as a redemptive, rather than a soteriological, act. Only when the believer accepts this gift does the crucifixion have a salvational effect in his life -- i.e. his sins are forgiven.
I'm going to all your position "once TRULY saved, always saved", or "OTSAS", to distinguish it from the regular OSAS position. The distinction is that the OSASer believes he can know that he is saved, while the OTSASer believes that he cannot be certain of his own salvation.
The OTSASer theoretically holds that salvation is a one time thing, but views salvation (for practical purposes) in addition to sanctification as an ongoing process. The true "Conditional Salvation" or "CS" believer holds that not only can you not know if you are saved, but that you can be "truly saved" and subsequently lose your salvation. It is this belief that Becky rightly says is depending upon works to "keep" their salvation.
The OSASer believes that forgiveness is a "once for all" thing which occurs when the sinner believes and asks for forgiveness. What follows salvation is sanctification, the process of becoming more perfect, and of building up rewards in heaven. In a sense you could say that to a "saved" person, all sin is venial. The price of this sin is a straining (rather than a severing) of one's relationship with God, and temporal punishment. (I'd be willing to posit a purgatorial-type punishment in these cases).
The first time I was forgiven, then, is not an event from which to draw future forgiveness. The Cross is where to draw future forgiveness from.
You cannot be forgiven until you ask for forgiveness. The first time (in this context) you ask for forgiveness is not the crucifixion, but when you first believe and confess. That singular point is the connection between the general act of redemption and the specific acceptance of the gift of salvation by the individual.
But isn't that precisely what ya'll say the purpose of the crucifixion was? To provide a perfect atonement, once for all time?
I think in Middle-Earthian Chaos Theory the 65,535th post of the Hobbit Hole was the butterfly wing that reached back through the mists of time and caused the sinking of Numenor......if only we had known what folly our posting would wreak!
;^)
It goes back to the faith/works thing. Abraham believed in God, so of course he was going to obey Him.
The idea is that once saved a person should be sinning a lot less and eventually not at all. At least in my opinion. Striving to eradicate sin from one's life.
A clear expression of Catholic/Protestant doctrine.
*shudder!* I've seen pics of her floating about....NOT pretty!
I think we are actually in agreement on that. The question now is whether or not you can know you are saved.
I see two possible interpretations here. Either you can't fall away (the OSAS position), or if you do fall away, you are damned for good, with no further forgiveness or repentance possible. I don't know of anyone who holds this latter position.
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