Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
This is generally thought to mean that we will not be able to sin (incorruptible) as opposed to the physical substance
OK, thanks!
But there was something of Jesus, his human nature, which was not in existence until the incarnation. Correct? Or do you believe his human nature was also preexistent?
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [now] no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Act 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another [psalm], Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
v.
There is a midrash which states that the whole of the Torah is contained in the Ten Commandments. Further, the Ten Commandments are contained in the the First Commandment: I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. The first commandment is contained within its first word: anokhi. The word anokhi is contained within its first letter, aleph. And the letter aleph is silent.
Hey Doug I do not think you as a legalist law keeper will like what that text says
The blessed change itself. In gospel times the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth. As creatures, we worship the Father of all: as Christians, we worship the Father of our Lord Jesus. Now the change shall be, In the nature of the worship. Christians shall worship God, not in the ceremonial observances of the Mosaic institution, but in spiritual ordinances.No more external rites or ceremonies which were but a prefiguring of Christ .
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Before the world was, Jesus had the SAME glory as God the Father. His prayer was to RETURN to that SAME glory that he had. To his spiritual body.
So do you believe that jesus had a spiritual body BEFORE he was God incarnate ? That is what your crazy interpretation would force it to mean
The scriptures say God is a spirt not that he has a spiritual body ..that is a whole different thing .
So what does this mean?
Jesus would resurrect with triumph . He would have overcome death and the grave . He would once again have the Glory of God.
What does Glory mean when Jesus asks to have the Glory restored>?
Once again back to the Greek
doxa {dox'-ah} TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 2:233,178 from the base of 1380
Part of Speech n f
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) opinion, judgment, view
2) opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone
a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory
3) splendour, brightness
a) of the moon, sun, stars
b) magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace
c) majesty
1) a thing belonging to God
a) the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity
2) a thing belonging to Christ
a) the kingly majesty of the Messiah
b) the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty
3) of the angels
a) as apparent in their exterior brightness
4) a most glorious condition, most exalted state
a) of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth
b) the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven
As you see the glory that Jesus wanted returned is worship and honor and majesty not a spiritual body
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
Here Paul says it again. Jesus was made a spirit. A spiritual body.
No, here Doug says Jesus had a spiritual body
Do you know what a quickening is?
Adam was made a living soul and he brought death . Jesus the second Adam comes as the 2nd Adam to bring to life to that which the fall killed.
He is called Adam because Jesus was Flesh and blood, a man ,God is and was and will always be . He is a spirit. Jesus is God so Jesus is also a Spirit
Fully God and fully man
He gives spiritual and everlasting life to the saved
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
v.
The 600+ are all really there in the Torah, unless you wish to argue that things like dietary law were not really commanded by God.
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
v.
I believe Doug does see , but his pride makes him cling to the lie . Read some of his responses
Pride comes before the fall
No you don't Doug . Snerkel and I have given you Scriptures and the greek meaning. We have responded with the words of Christ as well as the words of Paul
What is clear to all the regenerate people that have read the exchange that you can not discern the meaning of the Scriptures.
Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
I don't disagree. God's spirit is a sign of ownership and a promise that we will have eternal life in Christ. For what reason and end are you persevering?
The holy spirit is the promise that God will give us eternal life at the coming of Christ. This occurs at the second coming of Christ:
Where do you hang out till then.? Will you be spiritually dead?
The bible teaches that our spirit returns to God in an unconscious state to await the resurrection. But what happens when someone gives you earnest money? Isn't that money a promise of more money to come? Is the earnest money the complete sum of money promised? The answer of course is no. God's Holy Spirit given to believers through Christ is an earnest of the spiritual body, eternal life, we are promised. It's not the whole deal, but it is part of it. You don't get the rest until later.
But then again, this is just Paul exactly describing when and what occurs.
He is describing the second coming and the physical bodies coming out of the grave
Nope. Look:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
If you read this, you see there at least two resurrections. In the first one, people are resurrected and live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. Therefore, this must be a group that is resurrected at Christs second coming. This corresponds to:
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
And also corresponds to:
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Paul was a believer. He was talking about the group he's going to be in, the ones resurrected at the beginning of the thousand year reign of Christ. " on such the second death hath no power,". This is an immortal, eternal group, resurrected with spiritual bodies, just as Paul said.
The second group though ARE part of a physical resurrection. They CAN die because they are mortal. They are subject to the second death.
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Lets look at the Greek for the word HAVE
From Greek Mood
: "In general, mood is the feature of the verb that presents the verbal action or state with reference to its actuality or potentiality. Voice indicates how the subject relates to the action or state of the verb; tense is used primarily to portray the kind of action."
Let's look at the mood sense for the word "echo", for which you gave the tense. From Blueletterbible.org:
5792 Mood - Subjunctive
The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina." So if I'm reading this right, a believer MAY or MAY not have eternal life according to this statement. God won't take it away, but a believer can reject his salvation.
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
I don't disagree with your analysis. In fact I agree with it and commend you on the good job you did with this verse. You are right. Absolutely we have passed into life from death. God sees our sins no more. We have the eternal holy spirit of God residing in us. We are no longer subject to the death penalty in God's eyes. We have been granted reprieve. It occurred once and for all when we accepted Christ. So yes, as I pointed out in an earlier post, we have the seed of eternal life in us. It is the earnest money. But it doesn't culiminate into full spiriutal maturity in the form of our spiritual bodies until the second coming of Christ. That is the rest of the earnest money promised to us.
I'm happy to let Christ live in me and keep God's laws. Thanks!
So do you believe that jesus had a spiritual body BEFORE he was God incarnate ? That is what your crazy interpretation would force it to mean The scriptures say God is a spirt not that he has a spiritual body ..that is a whole different thing .
Let's see. If one is composed of spirit substance, one would have to have a spiritual body would they not? Let's see:
spirit:
G4151
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
Spirit is a noun. Now let's look at "spiriitual" an adjective describing what kind of body:
G4152
pneumatikos
phyoo-mat-ik-os'
From G4151; non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual. Compare G5591.
In case you missed it "non-carnal' is humanly ethereal. Etherereal means:
Characterized by lightness and insubstantiality; tangible. Highly refined; delicate. See Synonyms at airy. Of the celestial spheres; heavenly. Not of this world; spiritual.
So yes. Absolutely Jesus had a spiritual body before his incarnation. What other kind of body would a spirit have? A flesh and bone one?
From Greek Mood
: "In general, mood is the feature of the verb that presents the verbal action or state with reference to its actuality or potentiality. Voice indicates how the subject relates to the action or state of the verb; tense is used primarily to portray the kind of action."
Let's look at the mood sense for the word "echo", for which you gave the tense. From Blueletterbible.org:
5792 Mood - Subjunctive
The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina." So if I'm reading this right, a believer MAY or MAY not have eternal life according to this statement. God won't take it away, but a believer can reject his salvation.
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Doug will you PLEASE think?
Why would the mood be SUBJECTIVE He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me,
The condition is the hearing and the believing
Unlike the other verses that were to those that already believed , this was telling the conditions that bring eternal life .....thus it is a conditional promise the CIRCUMSTANCE is the hearing and believing <<<
I have asked your about 5 times where you will be after you die until the resurrection. You do not answer but just keep moving the target. May I have an answer to that before we continue?
That was a great definition of glory, but once again you missed the point.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Joh 17:5 Father! Give me glory in your presence now, the same glory I had with you before the world was made.(Good News Bible)
If Jesus had the same glory as God the father WITH God the father, and God the father is spirit. And spirits have spiritual bodies, then yes absolutely Jesus has to have a spiritual body to get back the same glory he had before. Man, I feel like I should be getting out a Speak N' Spell for you sometimes. :-)
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Here Paul says it again. Jesus was made a spirit. A spiritual body. No, here Doug says Jesus had a spiritual body
Well for the millionth time, spirits have spiritual bodies. Paul calls Jesus a spirit, and says he gets a spiritual body. He goes through great pains to explain it. He be hitting you over the head with a stick right now if you were sitting in a class with him:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
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