The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[malakhi]

The ref! You brought out the ref! Man, haven't seen that in ages! ;o)

LOL! I thought this instance warranted it. ;o)

[SoothingDave]

Scripture uses the present perfect, "have" or "has", establishing the ongoing action of "eternal" that is uninterupted.

This is quite an interesting blind spot you guys have here. As I already said, the definition of "eternal" is not in question here, no matter how much you would like it to be.

The question is what is meant as a believer? Is it someone who one day expresses an intellectual acceptance of an idea, or is it someone who strives to live the way Jesus instructed us?

SD

[SoothingDave]

Reread my post again SD.

I've read it, and the same argument many, many times.

The word believe is used of the faith at the point of regeneration and also of the faith that is a part of the Christian life. You are confusing these two.

You are projecting your dogma onto the text. Those who believe have eternal life. And eternal is eternal. But "those who believe" is not those who one day say "yes." "Those who believe" is those who live the life and persevere.

Did Paul not understand your dogma? Cause he thought that he had to persevere, work out his faith, and that he had to make up what was lacking in Christ.

SD

[malakhi]

Getting used to paying yourself through investments is challenging. (Which is why my other investments are right out of the paycheck.)

You can set up an account with Sharebuilder, an online brokerage firm. You can schedule regular debits to your checking account, to purchase a predetermined basket of stocks.

They also can do real time market orders.

[drstevej]

***The Greek word which is translated as everlasting life in the King James Bible is the Greek word, "Zoe". It means "abundant life" or "the highest plateau of life". "Zoe" is used in the NT whenever "eternal life" is mentioned. ***

John 10:28 [KJV]
And I give unto them eternal [greek = aionios] life [greek = zoe]; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The word "eternal" in the KJV is aionios, the adjective modifying "life" [zoe].

SD, note: Shall never [ou me] perish! BTW, Paul uses the strongest negative in Greek [ou me] to make this even more emphatic!

[drstevej]

If one has it and loses it it isn't eternal.

[IMRight]

BTW, Paul uses the strongest negative in Greek [ou me] to make this even more emphatic!

I thought the strongest negative was "megenweto'"(sp)??

[SoothingDave]

What part of the word "eternal" not being in question escapes you?

What is in question is to whom the promise goes.

SD

[ventana]

For discussion

*Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

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*James 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Looking at James in context we can see those who do not endure temptation to receive the "Crown of Life" instead recieve death. The Crown of life is therefore, Eternal Life)

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Jam 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

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*Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

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*1Cr 9:27 But I keep under my body , and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

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*2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

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One must be saved. One must proclaim the Lord Jesus as their Savior. Thereby, one escapes the pollutions of the world.

One must endure temptation, one must overcome, in order to eat of the tree of life.

Notice this is not about reward for works.

If one does not endure, does not overcome, they become castaway. They become entangled again by the world, a slave once more to sin, and they die. You must overcome the world, or the world will overcome you.

Those who never believe are not saved. If however, they once Believe, but are overcome again by the world they are even worse off.

How could you be even worse off than not saved?

Is is because, having tasted the sweetness of salvation, you get to spend eternity mourning the loss of what you once held firmly; the hand of Jesus?

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Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

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The warning I wish to make is that Scripture is the soil of doctrine. Doctrine that is contrary to Scripture is like the stony ground of the Parable.  

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Mar 4:5  And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: Mar 4:6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

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v.

[SoothingDave]

If one has it and loses it it isn't eternal.

Untrue. You confuse adjectives and adverbs. This is a peculiar blind spot indeed.

The life is eternal. You can imagine that you possess it, but turn out wrong.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

The word "eternal" in the KJV is aionios, the adjective modifying "life" [zoe].

Obviously the adjective modifys the word "life". and I began my post by saying if we repent and ask Jesus into our life that we would go to heaven. That wasn't my point. Today we can have "Zoe" abundant life or the highest plateau of life. We can have that thru Yeshua (Torah, God's instruction) and not by the works of the flesh.

[SoothingDave]

That policy stays in place until the death of the policy holder now matter how old they are when they die.

Have you ever bought insurance? Life insurance?

Becuase the policy is not indefinite. In fact "term" life insurance is called that because it is good for a period (a term) of time.

The benefits are for the policy holder but for the beneficiary(s) upon death. Are you so dense to think they wouldn't need that?

If you buy a 20 year policy and don't die in those 20 years, then you and your beneficiaries don't need the policy. you would have been better off spending the money on somethign else, somethign with equity.

SD

[drstevej]

***The life is eternal. You can imagine that you possess it, but turn out wrong.***

Oh, then you do believe in OSAS after all!

You are only rejecting "I think I'm saved therefore I'm always saved."

We're making progress.

[malakhi]

To my knowledge the Congress has not had a conference committee on that legislation yet. So while each house has voted on a versino of it, there has been no final vote on a reconciled version.

I just e-mailed a friend of mine who keeps a close watch on these issues to see if he has any updates on the status.

[al_c]

Just got a call from mrs. al_c saying that Hannah's doctor has discovered a murmer in her heart and says to have it checked out by a cardiologist. Now this is probably going to be minor (mrs. al_c has a murmer, too) but prayers would surely be welcomed.

al_c

[drstevej]

thanks for the clarification.

[al_c]

Good icon. I've bookmarked it for later use.

[ventana]

Regeneration effects the entire being of a person and is irreversible. No one is unregenerated after regeneration.

*2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

v.

[SoothingDave]

Oh, then you do believe in OSAS after all! You are only rejecting "I think I'm saved therefore I'm always saved."

Sure. The only problem I have is with the presumption found in assuming that you are saved. Because Scripture, as noted right above, gives us ample warning to keep on the straight and narrow lest we fall off.

The fact that God will see to his chosen being saved is not a point that we are to obsess about. We are to keep our noses clean and to the grindstone. Let "predetermination" wokr itself out.

If, in the end, we persevere, then we have persevered. Let the chickens hatch first.

We're making progress.

Nope, just clarifying.

SD