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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)
Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.


Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

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TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; michaeldobbs
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To: ventana
Deposit or committed, wouldn't make a difference. I would put the emphasis on "He is able to keep" God is keeping our commitment to him, we do not keep it, we can't keep it, He knows that, so He does the saving and the keeping.

Becky

51,361 posted on 05/04/2003 2:37:54 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: saradippity
All Arizona gambling is on the Indian Reservations and I go to keep the Indians employed. Work gives dignity to man.
I also consider it my charitable contribution. Afterall I go there knowing I will lose all my money but it will all go to the tribe,it's really helping them too. Once the tribes were very poor,now they have lots of money,food on the table,children who can go to college and so on. What do you think?

I think having more money doesn't really solve anything. The same problems are still going to be there and may even become worse. The United States is the richest nation in the world but we are still morally corrupt compared to some poorer countries.

And I don't know about there, but here in Michigan "tribes" are sometimes composed of people who don't even live on reservations but instead have a certain amount of Indian blood and are thus entitled to share in the proceeds. They may already have a nice job and home. It's really nothing more than big business...a greed grab.

At a past job, I used to sometimes used to install software in the business offices of the casinoes here in Michgan. I know for a fact that the smart ones pay people from Las Vegas or Atlantic City to essentially come in and run the casino's for them. So your donations are going to enrich them also. Wouldn't a better solution be to give your money directly to a poor Indian if you're concerned about that?

51,362 posted on 05/04/2003 2:45:45 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
True Story, my dad had a friend who went to Las Vegas. He got to playing BlackJack and was winning, after something like 28 hours straight of playing and being $500,000 to the good his daughter finally convinced him to cash in and go to his room to rest. He laid down to nap and never woke up. Died in his sleep. His children gave almost all his winnings to the church the man attended. Catholic. They accepted it.

Wow...talk about ethical dilemmas.

51,363 posted on 05/04/2003 2:48:00 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Wow...talk about ethical dilemmas.

Lol, I can just hear some representative from the Vatican, reading a 60 page study on why it's alright for the RC Church to accept winnings from casino gamblers. Lol

JH :-)

51,364 posted on 05/04/2003 2:58:30 PM PDT by JHavard (There can only be one 1st place winner in a race.)
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; DouglasKC
I forgot to put the indian smoke signal saying my tongue was in my cheek. I've only gone once,it's three miles from my home and I took some out of towners,who wanted to see it there.While I don't think gambling is a sin unless one is addicted,or spending money that is needed elsewhere,I think its availability can be very bad for the community in general.

I was sure you would know I was kidding by even suggesting Jesus would not mind going for such "noble purposes".Becky,I am not going to even think about writing the hilarious response I had for your comment. Interesting though.

51,365 posted on 05/04/2003 3:23:10 PM PDT by saradippity
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To: saradippity; CindyDawg
I forgot to put the indian smoke signal saying my tongue was in my cheek. I've only gone once,it's three miles from my home and I took some out of towners,who wanted to see it there.While I don't think gambling is a sin unless one is addicted,or spending money that is needed elsewhere,I think its availability can be very bad for the community in general.

Sorry, you have to be pretty clear with me...just ask cindy dawg. :-)

I have known many many Chrisitians who think it's perfectly okay to go up to the casinos every weekend rain or shine. Sorry for mixing you up...

51,366 posted on 05/04/2003 3:31:46 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Specifically I'll admit that on gambling scripture is lacking. But generally it goes against biblical principles of lust, greed and giving to others.

Every one who sets aside 20 bucks to game in place of going to a movie or out to dinner is going again Biblical principles of lust, greed and giving to others?

When you gamble what aren't you coveting someone else's money?

You don't have to be. Some people enjoy the game. Sometimes it makes the competition a higher level.

Don't you desire to win the casino's money or someone else's money?

Doesn't the movie theatre desire your money or someone else's money? A professional sports team gets your money. Is watching a sporting event idolatry? (it can be)Same with gambling. You'd need to see what's in the heart before making a judgement.

51,367 posted on 05/04/2003 6:10:31 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant (Hows my posting? Call 1-800-Matthew 1:24 & 25.)
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To: Segale2001
A praise band, huh? What do you play? :')
51,368 posted on 05/04/2003 6:11:00 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: DouglasKC
Another story. A elderly lady won 80,000 in my area on a lotto ticket and gave it to the pastor of the church where I used to attend and it paid for the addition they'd been praying about. A couple of people had a problem with that and left the church but its Bible preaching forgiven church as far as I can tell.
51,369 posted on 05/04/2003 6:13:30 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant (Hows my posting? Call 1-800-Matthew 1:24 & 25.)
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To: drstevej; ventana
Did you mean to post 51165 to Ventana or me?
51,370 posted on 05/04/2003 6:28:52 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: CindyDawg
I'm really not sure now. No matter.

Steve
51,371 posted on 05/04/2003 6:32:02 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: SoothingDave
Almost makes you want to re-examine your paradigm that we are "saved" by a one time declaration of faith

. Not really, old wise one :'). Just making two comments here. 1. There are always exceptions, King David being one, but there are signs if someone is really saved but only God knows the heart. 2. We should be very careful that what we put into our bodies is not going to affect our walk with Christ.

51,372 posted on 05/04/2003 6:40:20 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: SoothingDave
I don't think that a congregation would want as pastor a man who could not keep his vows

Me either. I just knew someone who had been divorced (both at fault) got saved and went to a seminary and became a preacher.

51,373 posted on 05/04/2003 6:44:12 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: ventana; Dr Steve; JHavard
While it is scriptural that Jesus does promise "whosoever shall believe on me shall not perish, but have everlasting life, I think there is confusion on what, precisely, he was asking us to believe.

I haven't found any contradictions in the Bible. You need to go to the scriptures that are very clear first. The Doc posted several on #51165. If verses seem to conflict I have found that I am the one misunderstanding. Ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand. Also reading the complete passage helps me when I get stuck.

Paul says this: 1Cr 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. So Paul is saying -to believers in the Lord- that they must run in this race in order to obtain -Salvation, what else?- and that even he must struggle against sin (keep his body under subjection) in order that he will not lose his salvation.

Read what Paul also says in Acts 13:48. Since he wrote this, to me it means he was talking about "our walk" (or run :')) after salvation. Paul is either contradicting himself or the verses mean something else. I vote for the latter,but JH explains it in the post he sent to you, much better than I can.

51,374 posted on 05/04/2003 7:02:50 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: saradippity
I knew you were kidding:)

But my story is still a true story. The talk of gambling just made me think of it.

Becky

51,375 posted on 05/04/2003 8:00:27 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Every one who sets aside 20 bucks to game in place of going to a movie or out to dinner is going again Biblical principles of lust, greed and giving to others?

On some basic level perhaps so. Movies are usually all about glorifying things that are antithetical to Christianity. Blowing 50 bucks on a dinner that we could have prepared ourselves is probably not the greatest thing either.

Maybe that's why the gate is so narrow. I don't know. What I believe is that Christ will progressively "holify" (is that a word?) us so that these things become less and less frequent. In the meantime God understands that these things are part of the society we live in and that they're unavoidable to a certain extent. Total separation from society isn't the new testament norm.

Doesn't the movie theatre desire your money or someone else's money? A professional sports team gets your money. Is watching a sporting event idolatry? (it can be)Same with gambling. You'd need to see what's in the heart before making a judgement.

Then I don't ever want to see any criticism of catholics from you for praying to statues or dead saints because there is no difference as far as I can see. :-).

But you're right, I shouldn't be critical or judgmental of those who do gamble because except for the grace of God there I go.

51,376 posted on 05/04/2003 8:04:38 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Another story. A elderly lady won 80,000 in my area on a lotto ticket and gave it to the pastor of the church where I used to attend and it paid for the addition they'd been praying about. A couple of people had a problem with that and left the church but its Bible preaching forgiven church as far as I can tell.

I don't know. It would feel wrong to me. It's almost like saying that how you got the money is okay as long as it's legal. If an abortionist donated 80K would that be accepted?

51,377 posted on 05/04/2003 8:07:09 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; Invincibly Ignorant
Then I don't ever want to see any criticism of catholics from you for praying to statues or dead saints because there is no difference as far as I can see. :-).

Watch out for those low punches. Lol

Your right though, if we become spiritually passive, for fear of being called judgmental, then so be it.

JH :-)

51,378 posted on 05/04/2003 8:26:21 PM PDT by JHavard (There can only be one 1st place winner in a race.)
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To: CindyDawg
There are no contradictions in the Bible. Paul says he can lose his salvation. I believe him. The Greek word translated as castaway in 1Cr 9:27 is the same word for reprobate and unapproved. It means, elsewhere as here, someone who is truly lost.

There are no contradictions in the Bible. There are however doctrines and interpretations, however strongly believed, that do contradict Scripture. OSAS is one of those.

There is no inconsistancy in Paul's teaching  Act 13:48  either, if you can understand that the gift can be lost. No man can pluck you out of his hand, but you yourself can fall away. So fear the Lord. Paul does say this, there is no getting around it. Eternal life is for recipients of the Gift who "persevere to the end."

v.
51,379 posted on 05/04/2003 8:36:12 PM PDT by ventana
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To: ventana; CindyDawg; All
There are no contradictions in the Bible. Paul says he can lose his salvation. I believe him. The Greek word translated as castaway in 1Cr 9:27 is the same word for reprobate and unapproved. It means, elsewhere as here, someone who is truly lost.

More on the subject.

1 Cor 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
V-18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
V-19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
V-20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; that I might gain them that are without law.
V-22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
V-24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
V-25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
V-26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
V-27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. This is all about good works and heavenly rewards, not salvation. Note the references to rewards used in those 11 verses.

I have a reward
that I might gain them
that I might gain them
I might gain
that I might be partaker thereof
but one receiveth the prize?
that ye may obtain
that striveth for the mastery
obtain a corruptible crown;
I myself should be a castaway/worthless/rejected/unapproved.

From verse 17, it’s all about rewards and gains and receiving and obtaining. And as verse 25 says, Paul is talking about his incorruptible heavenly crown.

2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

There will be many crowns awarded to the saved.

A crown for righteousness. 2 Tim 4:8,

A crown for standing fast in the Lord. Phlip 4:1

A crown of rejoicing.1 Thess 2:19

The crown of life. James 1:12

JH :-)

51,380 posted on 05/04/2003 8:41:01 PM PDT by JHavard (There can only be one 1st place winner in a race.)
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