Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Do you ever go to a movie? Out to dinner? etc. Gambling can be considered a form of entertainment when, like anything else, done in moderation. Which is why I said that whether or not its sin is between him and the Lord. Although its an "appearance" of evil. And even that is subjective. You don't do what causes one to stumble I guess.
On the surface this would seem to be a true argument but I'm having a problem finding one instance of finacial risk not ultimately being motivated by greed. Can you think of one? Why lock in a low rate when you think it's going to go higher? Ultimately isn't it because you want to keep more of the money you have?
And Jesus would never have had to taken a financial risk, he knew that the father would provide what he needed. Suppose the disciples took some money and decided to gamble some of it away in the hopes that they could gain more? Would Jesus have condoned that? Suppose they had invested their money in an attempt to make a good return...would Jesus have accepted that?
[1] Have you ever owned stock? If financial risk is sinful, owning stock (or any other asset that potentially increases or decreases) is sin.
My one stock buying experience was about 3 years ago when in a fit of I'm-going-to-strike-it-rich-on-penny-stocks I spent 2 grand on some cheap stock. The company has since gone out of business. This was more than a year before I even considered the reality of Christ.
[2] Have you ever had a mortgage? If interest is sinful having a mortgage would be supporting sin. Why settle, as a Christian, for something you believe God merely "tolerates?"
I think that's one of the situations Paul was talking about here:
1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in the letter not to associate intimately with fornicators;
1Co 5:10 yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then you must go out of the world.
Paul recognized that it was impossible for us not to associate with sinners.
This is certainly a thought provoking issue huh? :-)
Yeah, I guess that's what I was trying to say only I was a lot more wordy about it. Thanks. :-)
I don't know...I think you've started down the steep side of a slippery slope of sin when it comes to that issue. It's like saying that it's okay to bow down and worship a tiki god because you're not really worshipping the tiki God, but you're worshipping Christ. Maybe or maybe not, but it looks bad. Physical actions mean things.
Gambling and what it brings is surely the playground of Satan. I don't think anyone would argue with that. The question is how long can one play on a dangerous playground without getting hurt or hurting another? It's inviting disaster.
I'm sorry, I thought you had said you were OSAS.
While it is scriptural that Jesus does promise "whosoever shall believe on me shall not perish, but have everlasting life, I think there is confusion on what, precisely, he was asking us to believe.
As I see it there are two choices as to what this means
As I understand it, the second choice is rejected by some because it is clearly works based, and is therefore in violation of Pauls assertion that we are not saved through works least any should boast.
The mistake here, IMO, is that they make no distinction between works done before your coming to Jesus and the "work" of being a Christian. Paul says this:
1Cr 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
So Paul is saying -to believers in the Lord- that they must run in this race in order to obtain -Salvation, what else?- and that even he must struggle against sin (keep his body under subjection) in order that he will not lose his salvation.
Again, Paul says:
Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.Does it sound here that he is telling these already saved believers that it is easy? No, and at this point it is worth considering how much of the NT is devoted to exhortations to behave, to obey, to work and to FEAR. Now why would you fear, if you knew could not lose the race?
There is more, but these are serious points to be addressed. As to the claim made by many that those that fall away were never truly saved at all, I have not able to find any discussion of that concept in the NT so far. If you, or anyone else has any scriptural citations supporting this concept, please post them, but its hard imagining that Paul, by his own words "lest I myself be a castaway", was putting himself in that category. I think he knew his conversion was real.
v.
My Bible and Strongs both define the word used here: Paratheke, as "Deposit"
So it reads:
2 Timothy 1:12 for the which reason also I am suffering these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know in whom I have put my trust, and I am confident that he is able to keep my deposit unto that day.
To me it means this: During his ministry he has been persecuted and scorned. He suffered greatly in fulfillment of his mission and he trusts in his reward. In the context of this passage the "depost" is the reward for his actions/ministry, and makes no reference of his moment of salvation. His confidence was in his being able to persevere to the end, and receive his "incorruptable crown".
v.
Eating and what it brings can surely be the playground of Satan. Drinking and what it brings can surely be the playground of Satan. I'm gonna need some specific scirptural support regarding gambling? :-)
That's probably true.
The "deposit" could also mean the gift of the holy spirit which is a downpayment, a guarantee, of eternal life to come.
V, I realize that most “Works for Salvation Oriented Christians,” will agree with your interpretation of 1 Cor 9:24 to 27, but here’s how one, who believes that salvation and good works are fruits of that salvation are two separate things, and how I read this scripture.
1 Cor 9: 24 - 27 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Paul is saying this.
Every trial or shortcoming a Christian comes to on the road to God’s Kingdom is like we are in a race. We will never grow and change if we take a “come what may” attitude about it, so we have to approach each one as we would if it were in competition for a prize.
If this race was for salvation alone, and there was only one winner given the prize, that would mean that only one Christian was going to win it, and Jesus already did that, so why run a race that’s already been won?
But that’s not the point here, the point is that we run 100’s of races in out spiritual life time, and each one has it’s own separate prize/reward. We may run the race for overcoming a drinking problem, and we need to tackle it as though we’re in a competitive sports race.
The first time we enter a race against drinking, we may only come in 20th place, we didn’t succeed or win, we failed, we are a castaway.
The second time we tried, we came in 15th place, we still lost the race, but every time you take another stab at it, it becomes another new race, and eventually, you’ll no longer be a castaway/unapproved, but you’ll win the prize.
Salvation isn’t one single, do it or die race, with everyone in competition in the same salvation race, but every problem in our life we overcome with God’s help, is another prize or reward we’ll receive at the judgment day.
Salvation can’t possibly be one single race, with only one winner, and one prize, but it has to be individual and private races, that each of us struggle with in our lifetime.
JH :-)
Specifically I'll admit that on gambling scripture is lacking. But generally it goes against biblical principles of lust, greed and giving to others. When you gamble what aren't you coveting someone else's money? Don't you desire to win the casino's money or someone else's money? If not why do it?
If you want to satisfy you sense of entertainment why not just play poker for fun? Or for chips?
Would Jesus go to Vegas and gamble even once for entertainment? Would any of his disciples?
All Arizona gambling is on the Indian Reservations and I go to keep the Indians employed. Work gives dignity to man.
I also consider it my charitable contribution. Afterall I go there knowing I will lose all my money but it will all go to the tribe,it's really helping them too. Once the tribes were very poor,now they have lots of money,food on the table,children who can go to college and so on. What do you think?
Becky
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