The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[malakhi]

I find it absolutely disgusting and amazing that you and Dave can so easily make excuses for the ongoing, continuous practice of wickedness.

Are you in possession of some sort of psychic abilities of which I am unaware? Dave is Catholic. I am a Jew. So I have no vested interest in what happens to the Catholic church. I am, however, interested in truth. Neither Dave nor I are defending the practices of pedophiles. Both Dave and I are on the record as calling for the immediate suspension of suspected pedophiles, and their removal if the evidence warrants it. Our words on the subject are on record dating back over a year, since these stories first started gaining media attention. For you, a newbie, to come in here yesterday, knowing nothing at all about us, about our beliefs, about what we have previously said on the subject, and to begin making such ridiculous accusations, doesn't bode well for your credibility.

Let me spell it out to you in itty-bitty sound bites.

1. Pedophilia is evil

2. Suspected pedophiles should be (and are being) suspended pending investigation

3. If evidence warrants, they should be (and are being) removed from the priesthood

4. The coverup which occurred in some dioceses is unconscionable. Bishops who engaged in it should be (and are being) removed.

5. NONE OF THIS addresses the separate issues of the root of sin, the willfulness of sin, and the ability of priests in a state of sin to function as priests. The last is a matter of Catholic theology, and has, as both a Calvinist and an Anglican have pointed out, been hashed out over the centuries. If you don't agree with this theology, that is your prerogative.

[Titanites]

You are judging now.

[Titanites]

Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law.

[malakhi]

The death penalty affects more than the person executed - it affects an entire community with immeasurable pain.

So does murder.

It also brings little relief to the family of the victim.

It is not about relief for the victim. It is not about vengeance. It is about justice.

Now that I've shared my own personal experience (which drives my argument more than any rational argument) What personal events in your life evoke such passion for you on this subject?

Not to be flippant, but my argument is driven by reason rather than any personal experience. I can see no other just penalty for intentional homicide than death. If you think otherwise, please make your case.

[Mr. Lucky]

While Ethelbert was an English ruler, he didn't rule all of England, he was the monarch of Kent. Christianity didn't become the predominate religion in all of England until sometime during the 8th century, its organization being controlled by Rome for the first time in about 778.

[Titanites]

Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

[Havoc]

I know, Dave. And thank you. The only thing I can fault you with is the spiritual consequence of that which you espouse and defend at all cost. That is between God and you. So don't feel like I have any ought against you. And I really do appreciate your words and concern.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Prayer on the way!

I didn't know you were a biker, you're not as bad as I've been telling everybody you were. :)

The rule I live by when on my bike is I NEVER have the right of way, when you start to think that you do is the day you die or get serious road rash. People pulling out in front of you is one of the things you have to watch for ALL the time, I grab brake and slow sown EVERY time I see someone coming out of a parking lot or driveway or making a left turn in front of me, even if you think they see ya don't trust them, it has served me well over the years, I'm not saying you didn't do that, sometimes ya just don't see it coming.

Sounds like you hit pretty hard if you broke the tree, you're lucky ya didn't get hurt any worse. What kind of a bike was it? As far a Harleys go they are a fun bike to ride, but they are a pain in the butt to maintain and the HD stands for $100 dollars, even the smallest thing on them will cost you a bunch. A Honda will just run and run and run and cost you very little over the long hall, their hard to beat. If ya got the bucks get both! One can NEVER have too many bikes!

Here's my invetory so far.

Mine:

Mine and Beckys:

Beckys:

Next one that I want to build myself. :)

So many bikes so little time. :)

BigMack

[Havoc]

Thank you sir. I don't know how to thank you all for your prayers. Much appreciated. Ya'll keep up the good work. I'm gonna hobble out for a bit and get insurance matters dealt with and see a man about a new bike. Hoping God favors me with a loan LOL. Looking at a Harley after while.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

5. NONE OF THIS addresses the separate issues of the root of sin, the willfulness of sin, and the ability of priests in a state of sin to function as priests. The last is a matter of Catholic theology, and has, as both a Calvinist and an Anglican have pointed out, been hashed out over the centuries. If you don't agree with this theology, that is your prerogative.

Regarding my involvement in the conversation I began by stating pediphile priests should be removed. I do not equate sin of pedophilia with a white lie and neither did Paul obviously in 1 Corinthians 5 when he complained of a guy fornicating with his fathers wife. As a matter of fact, I find a male having sex with a 12 year old boy worse. Since I recognize these are different levels of sin my involement was just to address the fornication pediphile thing. Dave diverted the conversation to the lesser.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

speaks evil of the law and judges the law.

I thought Catholics weren't under the law?

[SoothingDave]

Without getting too far into a lovefest with heresy, let me add that if you want to see this as a sign, I would see it as a sign to hang up the two wheeler. There's just too much traffic and too many big cars on the road these days.

I could see the allure of a bike out on the open road, but not in a high-traffic red light shopping district area.

SD

[malakhi]

I do not equate sin of pedophilia with a white lie

I agree, in terms of what the consequence should be.

But the consequence of the sin, be it large or small, is a separate question from whether or not a sacrament performed by a priest who is in a state of sin (again, regardless of the sin) is valid. According to Catholic theology, the sacrament is valid. The reasoning is that it is Jesus performing the sacrament, not the sinful priest.

Non-Catholic example. a Baptist pastor is engaged in an adulterous affair. He has not repented of his sin. At church one Sunday, he baptizes a new believer. Does the baptism "count"? Does it depend at all upon the spiritual state of the pastor? Or is the belief of the one being baptized the important thing?

It is the same thing with the Catholic sacraments. It is the state of the recipient that matters -- as far as validity goes -- not the state of the priest.

That the sacrament is valid doesn't change the fact that the priest is a sinner and should repent and sin no more (for everyday sin) or be removed from the priesthood entirely (for things like pedophilia).

That God can act through (and often despite of) sinners is evident from scripture. Pharaoh is an example from the Torah, and Judas from the gospels.

[SoothingDave]

In Davespeak, first the pedophile priests weren't sinning willfully, now they are.

That's four. Stop lying about what I said. I was using a definition of willful that is different from yours. Not every act of the will is "willful." And the dictionary backs this up.

James 4:
7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

You act as if those words are meaningless.

When have I done that? I am sorry that I view things in a less than simplistic manner. I recognize struggle. Yes, I agree that if you "draw near to God" He will draw near to you. And if you "resist the Devil" he will flee.

But it is not all black and white. People can struggle with this. They can try to draw near to God, but be held back.

You avoided the question from both Malakhi and I. Do you never confess and repent from the same sin? Do you ever do the same wrong thing over and over, no matter how hard you try?

SD

[SoothingDave]

I do not equate sin of pedophilia with a white lie and neither did Paul

And neither did I. Our new friend wanted to condemn a man for having no faith because he had habitual sin. I intended to demonstrate that habitual sin is not prima faciea evidence of a lack of faith.

If I fail and repent and then later fail again, this does nto mean I have no faith. It means that I am human. So I repent again, and God accepts me again.

There is no evidence given that any pervert priests did not intend to stay away from their sin. We can not presume an insincerity, a "faith given only by word, and not deed." We need only look to our own lives and see that we can set out with the best intentions and yet fail once again.

SD

[malakhi]

I intended to demonstrate that habitual sin is not prima faciea evidence of a lack of faith.

I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. (Romans 7:15)

[SoothingDave]

It is the state of the recipient that matters -- as far as validity goes -- not the state of the priest.

That depends on what you are talking about. For a valid Baptism of an adult, faith is required of the baptised.

But for the Eucharist, it is valid independent of the sin of the priest or recipient. By virtue of the actions of the priest.

A priest in a state of sin does harm to himself and a recipent in a state of sin does harm to himself as well. But onjectively the sacrament is valid.

Just a small point.

SD

[RobbyS]

I can read the Bible perfectly well so long as I don't have your help.