The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[CindyDawg]

For me abortion is the easiest to answer. Unless a mother's life is in danger a child should not be removed early but if it becomes necessary then I feel everything possible should be done to help the little one survive. I'm ashamed to admit that I didn't always feel this way. At one time I felt it was wrong for me but each woman should make their own decisions. Thankfully God opened my eyes and changed my way of thinking.

It would be very hard for me to vote for a death penalty but if the crime was henious enough and I was absolutely sure (witnesses, dna etc.) I could do it because we do not have a life without parole. It just came up again and our governor overruled it. Some people just can't go back into society. If we had life without parole I would never vote for a death penalty though because after death there are no more chances for salvation.

The last is the hardest. The last soldier found was from a town about 3 miles from me. I got all choked up when I saw his picture on the news yesterday. Such a handsome young man, standing proudly in his marine uniform. Sometimes we have to fight though, after all peaceful solutions resolved. I am very grateful to these young men and women who volunteered to protect us and have died for our freedom.

[JHavard]

It seems like we have been talking about Mary forever. What about Joseph? Let's talk about him awhile.

I'd love to. Mary did what thousands of Jewish mothers did in her day, she became pregnant, carried it for 9 months and delivered it and raised her son as all women do, but what about Joseph?

This guy really got a work out. He thought he was going to lead a normal life, become betrothed, get married and have a big family and teach all his boys a trade and live happily ever after.

However, it was not meant to be, the woman he chose happened to be the same one God chose to bring his Son into the world.

He had all the responsibilities of a married man, but not the benefits that usually went along with it.

Mary was gone most of the early part of her pregnancy, then suddenly an angel appeared to him and told him to get up, get packed and put Mary on a donkey and start walking at all hours of the morning and night.

Just as he'd get settled, the angel would roust him again, and send him somewhere else, walking in the middle of the night, and only his faith protecting him from marauders and thieves.

Now these weren't little 15 minute walks, these were journeys of over 50 miles, and Joseph came through like a champ.

He is an unsung hero in my book, and one of the first men I want to look up when we're in God's kingdom.

JH :-)

[Sass]

I appreciated your response incredibly. It seemed incredibly genuine. Somehow declaring political agendas of pacifism or just war fail grow feet and walk among us in our lives. Your candid response probably does more than any of my rhetoric. So thanks!

[CindyDawg]

Or "The Neverending Story -- The Second Coming". ;o)

I like that one.

[CindyDawg]

And you know for a fact what these priests might, and might not have done? I recall your hero David tried to hide the fact that he sent Bathsehba's husband out to get killed

Want to finish the story?

[JHavard]

Why don't you just answer the damn question, Jim? Go ahead. I dare you.

Dave, tomorrow, when your in control, if you still want an answer to this, first, tell me what the question is, and in an understandable manner.

JH

[RobbyS]

This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia

LIFE

Sources. The chief sources of information on the life of St. Joseph are the first chapters of our first and third Gospels; they are practically also the only reliable sources, for, whilst, on the holy patriarch's life, as on many other points connected with the Saviour's history which are left untouched by the canonical writings, the apocryphal literature is full of details, the non-admittance of these works into the Canon of the Sacred Books casts a strong suspicion upon their contents; and, even granted that some of the facts recorded by them may be founded on trustworthy traditions, it is in most instances next to impossible to discern and sift these particles of true history from the fancies with which they are associated. Among these apocryphal productions dealing more or less extensively with some episodes of St. Joseph's life may be noted the so-called "Gospel of James", the "Pseudo-Matthew", the "Gospel of the Nativity of the Virgin Mary", the "Story of Joseph the Carpenter", and the "Life of the Virgin and Death of Joseph".

Genealogy. St. Matthew (1:16) calls St. Joseph the son of Jacob; according to St. Luke (3:23), Heli was his father. This is not the place to recite the many and most various endeavours to solve the vexing questions arising from the divergences between both genealogies; nor is it necessary to point out the explanation which meets best all the requirements of the problem (see GENEALOGY OF CHRIST); suffice it to remind the reader that, contrary to what was once advocated, most modern writers readily admit that in both documents we possess the genealogy of Joseph, and that it is quite possible to reconcile their data.

Residence. At any rate, Bethlehem, the city of David and his descendants, appears to have been the birth-place of Joseph. When, however, the Gospel history opens, namely, a few months before the Annunciation, Joseph was settled at Nazareth. Why and when he forsook his home-place to betake himself to Galilee is not ascertained; some suppose -- and the supposition is by no means improbable -- that the then moderate circumstances of the family and the necessity of earning a living may have brought about the change. St. Joseph, indeed, was a tekton, as we learn from Matthew 13:55, and Mark 6:3. The word means both mechanic in general and carpenter in particular; St. Justin vouches for the latter sense (Dial. cum Tryph., lxxxviii, in P.G., VI, 688), and tradition has accepted this interpretation, which is followed in the English Bible.

Marriage. It is probably at Nazareth that Joseph betrothed and married her who was to become the Mother of God. When the marriage took place, whether before or after the Incarnation, is no easy matter to settle, and on this point the masters of exegesis have at all times been at variance. Most modern commentators, following the footsteps of St. Thomas, understand that, at the epoch of the Annunciation, the Blessed Virgin was only affianced to Joseph; as St. Thomas notices, this interpretation suits better all the evangelical data.

It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph's marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's brother"). A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place. These dreams, as St. Jerome styles them, from which many a Christian artist has drawn his inspiration (see, for instance, Raphael's "Espousals of the Virgin"), are void of authority; they nevertheless acquired in the course of ages some popularity; in them some ecclesiastical writers sought the answer to the well-known difficulty arising from the mention in the Gospel of "the Lord's brothers"; from them also popular credulity has, contrary to all probability, as well as to the tradition witnessed by old works of art, retained the belief that St. Joseph was an old man at the time of marriage with the Mother of God.

The Incarnation. This marriage, true and complete, was, in the intention of the spouses, to be virgin marriage (cf. St. Aug., "De cons. Evang.", II, i in P.L. XXXIV, 1071-72; "Cont. Julian.", V, xii, 45 in P.L.. XLIV, 810; St. Thomas, III:28; III:29:2). But soon was, the faith of Joseph in his spouse to be sorely tried: she was with child. However painful the discovery must have been for him, unaware as he was of the mystery of the Incarnation, his delicate feelings forbade him to defame his affianced, and he resolved "to put her away privately; but while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost. . . And Joseph, rising from his sleep, did as the angel of he Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife" (Matthew 1:19, 20, 24).

The Nativity and the Flight to Egypt. A few months later, the time came for Joseph and Mary to go to Bethlehem, to be enrolled, according to the decree issued by Caesar Augustus: a new source of anxiety for Joseph, for "her days were accomplished, that she should be delivered", and "there was no room for them in the inn (Luke 2:1-7). What must have been the thoughts of the holy man at the birth of the Saviour, the coming of the shepherds and of the wise men, and at the events which occurred at the time of the Presentation of Jesus in the Temple, we can merely guess; St. Luke tells only that he was "wondering at those things which were spoken concerning him" (2:33). New trials were soon to follow. The news that a king of the Jews was born could not but kindle in the wicked heart of the old and bloody tyrant, Herod, the fire of jealousy. Again "an angel of the Lord appeared in sleep to Joseph, saying: Arise, and take the child and his mother, and fly into Egypt: and be there until I shall tell thee" (Matthew 2:13).

Return to Nazareth. The summons to go back to Palestine came only after a few years, and the Holy Family settled again at Nazareth. St. Joseph's was henceforth the simple and uneventful life of an humble Jew, supporting himself and his family by his work, and faithful to the religious practices commanded by the Law or observed by pious Israelites. The only noteworthy incident recorded by the Gospel is the loss of, and anxious quest for, Jesus, then twelve years of old, when He had strayed during the yearly pilgrimage to the Holy City (Luke 2:42-51).

Death. This is the last we hear of St. Joseph in the sacred writings, and we may well suppose that Jesus's foster-father died before the beginning of Savior's public life. In several circumstances, indeed, the Gospels speak of the latter's mother and brothers (Matthew 12:46; Mark 3:31; Luke 8:19; John 7:3), but never do they speak of His father in connection with the rest of the family; they tell us only that Our Lord, during His public life was referred to as the son of Joseph (John 1:45; 6:42; Luke 4:22) the carpenter (Matthew 13:55). Would Jesus, moreover, when about die on the Cross, have entrusted His mother to John's care, had St. Joseph been still alive? According to the apocryphal "Story of Joseph the Carpenter", the holy man reached his hundred and eleventh year when he died, on 20 July (A. D. 18 or 19). St. Epiphanius gives him ninety years of age at the time of his demise; and if we are to believe the Venerable Bede, he was buried in the Valley of Josaphat. In truth we do not know when St. Joseph died; it is most unlikely that he attained the ripe old age spoken of by the "Story of Joseph" and St. Epiphanius. The probability is that he died and was buried at Nazareth.

[SoothingDave]

Why don't you just answer the damn question, Jim? Go ahead. I dare you.

Dave, tomorrow, when your in control, if you still want an answer to this, first, tell me what the question is, and in an understandable manner.

I am so sorry that I hid the questions from you, in my fit of uncontrollable pique. I will try to locate them.

Let's look at your post 50601. Right there at the top, you italicised and repeated my queries, before ignoring them and going off on a rant.

Can no person who has faith ever lose control and murder, or steal, or lie? Does that mean, automatically that they have no faith? Or does it mean that they lost control?

Again, I am sorry that I hid these questions from your sight and I hope that you are able to see them this time.

SD

[biblewonk]

BOTD Blasphemy of the day!

2. Mary's part in the sanctification of souls

22. The plan adopted by the three persons of the Blessed Trinity in the Incarnation, the first coming of Jesus Christ, is adhered to each day in an invisible manner throughout the Church and they will pursue it to the end of time until the last coming of Jesus Christ.

23. God the Father gathered all the waters together and called them the seas (maria). He gathered all his graces together and called them Mary (Maria). The great God has a treasury or storehouse full of riches in which he has enclosed all that is beautiful, resplendent, rare, and precious, even his own Son. This immense treasury is none other than Mary whom the saints call the "treasury of the Lord". From her fullness all men are made rich.

24. God the Son imparted to his mother all that he gained by his life and death, namely, his infinite merits and his eminent virtues. He made her the treasurer of all his Father had given him as heritage. Through her he applies his merits to his members and through her he transmits his virtues and distributes his graces. She is his mystical channel, his aqueduct, through which he causes his mercies to flow gently and abundantly.

25. God the Holy Spirit entrusted his wondrous gifts to Mary, his faithful spouse, and chose her as the dispenser of all he possesses, so that she distributes all his gifts and graces to whom she wills, as much as she wills, how she wills and when she wills. No heavenly gift is given to men which does not pass through her virginal hands. Such indeed is the will of God, who has decreed that we should have all things through Mary, so that, making herself poor and lowly,, and hiding herself in the depths of nothingness during her whole life, she might be enriched, exalted and honoured by almighty God. Such are the views of the Church and the early Fathers.

[SoothingDave]

"And you have no idea what a pervert priest might say in prayer after doing something terrible."

And that pervert priest who says, "Gee God, I'm really sorry for being a pervert, please forgive me", and then continues to willfully, habitually, without repentance(repentance is not simply saying, "oops, sorry for that" what you call "remorse", but is a turning away from that habitual sin) in an ongoing practice, has NOT repented, nor made a genuine confession.

I am left only with the conclusion that only Catholics are saddled with a struggle with sin. Only Catholics can genuinely repent, genuinely desire to change, but still fall short.

The evangelical can instantly repent and refrain from sin for his entire lifetime, plus he is gifted with the ability to judge exactly how sincere, repentent or willful any other person is. I definitely am going to have to change sides.

You are the one who said:

"Priests are living testaments to the faith."

You didn't preface it with "some" priests, but your statement is pertaining to all priests.

You have studied under the master very well. It is quite a feat, turning a general statement into an indictment based upon extreme circumstances. Such twisting of my words is worthy of Reggie.

SD

[biblewonk]

Sorry to hear about the accident. I just got a Honda Shadow Ace 750 last year. It's my poor mans Harley. The best part about it is the after market drag pipes. My wife wanted me to get it but now she fears I'll kill myself on it.

[SoothingDave]

The other questions Steven and the new guy wouldn't answer are is they can be used by God as instruments of His and if that meant they were perfect?

Crap. I thought I'd answered all of them. Sure they can be used by God. God used a donkey. But according to scripture we're to remove them. These are so simple.

I think my typo may have misled you. The question was not whether some sick pervert priest can be used as an agent of God but whether you can be. And whether that means that you are perfect and free from sin.

SD

[SoothingDave]

For the third time, that was not my assertion."

LOL, sure it was, you're just trying to wiggle out of it now.

You lack understanding. My words could have been clearer and I apologize.

Here is what you said in 50,602:

"what I said was that Christ is present in the priest performing sacraments. What is meant by that is not a physical presence, or a "real presence," but the recognition that spiritually, Christ is the one acting through the actions of the priest."

Yes, that is what I said. Christ works through the priest, so in that way He is present. The actions are those of Christ, not the priest. But He is not substantially present in the same "real" way that we talk about the elements of Communion.

The priest remains himself, he is not changed or transformed into Christ. He is simply an agent or a channel for Christ to do His work.

I'm sorry if you can't distinguish the difference, but that's all the more I have to say. Christ is present in the priest's "actions" is what I should have said. I shorthanded it to be present in the "priest" which seemed to have caused confusion.

I get it now, you say Christ is present in the priest, but not present, just working through the priest without being present, even though you say Christ is present.

Ridicule is not conducive to understanding. If that is your goal.

SD

[al_c]

I'll say a Rosary for you. ;o)

Just kidding, but I will be praying for you. Sorry to hear about your accident. Man, I wish people would pay attention to the bikers on the road, they've got just as much right as any other vehicle. What a crazy "me first" world we live in.

[SoothingDave]

If no one is to judge who are "reprobates", then on what basis does the Council of Trent judge protestants to be eternally condemned, that is, to be reprobates?

#1, Trent is an act of the Church, which is empowered to declare things on earth as they are in Heaven. So the Church has this authority where you do not.

#2, Anathemas are not personal judgments upon anybody, but rather statements of positions which, if held, place oneself outside of the bosom of the Church. This in most cases leads to danmnation. This is not the same as simply looking at one man and concluding that he is reprobate.

#3, Of course we can know whom to avoid by looking at their fruits. But this neither determines who is a "reprobate" (after all, the vilest may come to a change of heart, if God wills, right?) nor does it invalidate the sacraments (which was the original subject).

SD

[al_c]

They brought me more eggs though :')

But imagine what they may have done to them. ;o)

[RobbyS]

The guy also does not understand what an unworthy priest does to his own soul. Talleyrand at the mass condemns himself.

[SoothingDave]

Do you agree with the judgments of Trent of Protestants to be reprobates and eternally condemned?

That is not the "judgment" of Trent.

Trent outlines positions which are not consistent with the Catholic faith. Anyone who holds such a position has placed himself outside of the Church.

This is a very uncertain place to be, as to be judged to be cuplably outside of the Church leads to damnation.

This is not the same as saying all Protestants are condemmed.

Do I believe that what Trent states is true? Absolutely.

Do I believe, ipso facto, that all Protestants are destined for hell? No.

I believe in a merciful God. People brought up with blinding prejudice, invincibly ignorant of the truth of and need for the Church may be saved despite their earthly non-affiliation with the Church. I know of many people of good will who honestly strive to follow Jesus. They are just stunningly incorrect about the Church and elements of the Faith.

But I can't believe that God will punish those who are sincere, albeit somewhat lost.

SD

[al_c]

He was born on the Carlow/Wicklow border in the year 543 ad

They had motorcycles in 543 AD?!

[SoothingDave]

I'm sorry you got injured. Contrary to what some may believe, I don't wish you ill.

SD