The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Today, many well-known celebrities have popularized a new age pop-psychology distortion of kabbalah (I have heard it derisively referred to as "crap-balah") that has more in common with the writings of Deepak Chopra than with any authentic Jewish source.

Lol. This must be the type of Cabala madonna is into.

[CindyDawg]

They all cheated! Did you notice it was all NC's who cheated?

You cant call it cheating when there are no rules. lol. Besides, I went back and looked and all I saw was NC playing. Dave refused when asked. He wanted to stay home and watch TV :'(

[SoothingDave]

but if you recognize that someoneled you to Christ, helped you to understand, etc. and that person can rightly be said to have "participated" in your salvation. Of course, that person is only doing such things in union with Christ becuae of their own salvation, but the point remains. People still have a will.

So Mary led you to Christ?

Is this idea really that difficult? No, Mary didn't lead me to Christ, but Mary was absolutely instrumental in the very person of Christ being Incarnate. Maybe that means nothing to you, but where I come from, that means Mary had a huge role.

Mothers raise their children and they become a reflection of their mothers. Do you think Jesus is different?

The bottom line is that Mary, by being the mother of Jesus, is a part of the salvation of everyone. My grandmother was the one who did that for me. I miss her a lot but I don't pray to her.

Cause she's "dead." I know.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Dave refused when asked. He wanted to stay home and watch TV :'(

I don't jsut watch TV, I memorize it. LOL

SD

[CindyDawg]

Welcome. Do you belong to a certain denomination?

[Sass]

There is no reason Isaiah can't be studied using the same methods one would use to study the Iliad. But we need to understand that the conclusions of any such analysis are speculative, and that they don't change the meaning or significance of the scripture.

Isaiah can definitely be studied with methods used with other literature such as the Iliad! I think those methods, though, must inevitably become integrated with meaning and significance. In other words, out methods will/must affect our theology. To think that we can somehow distill them and guard them from one another so that they don't change the meaning of the text strikes me as a naive task.

I somehow reconcile my faith with these "secular" methods using R.H. Niebuhr's view of Scripture (which kind of scares me as I say it, because he has such a low Christology). Nonetheless, I'll try to take gems wherever I find them. Niebuhr makes a distinction between insider history and outsider history. So the Hbrw Bible is defined an insider history. The events are secondarily verifiable, but these events as mere historical event are meaningless. These historical events are given meaning through the theological grid that Scripture superimpose upon them (i.e. The Syro-Ephraimitic crisis of 732-735 b.c.e. which Isaiah spoke of is an historical event - the theological grid that makes it an insider history involves the South's need to follow YHWH alone rather than resort to treaties with Damascus or Samaria). The meaning given to these events as sacrilized secular history is the crucial factor. The same events are in view in both versions of the history and both are "true" in their own senses. We can use "secular" methods to ascertain the outsider history rather than the insider history (Maybe now I'm just being naive ... ACK!!!).

I've now written a whole post and I'm not sure if I even came toward any understanding....DOUBLE ACK!!!.... It is a good thing that my faith does not rest on my complete cognitive understanding of the status of Scripture.

[RobbyS]

But it does mean that the Holy Spirit chose to make use of our Blessed Lady, although he had no absolute need of her, in order to become actively fruitful in producing Jesus Christ and his members in her and by her. This is a mystery of grace unknown even to many of the most learned and spiritual of Christians.

I know you don't like the extravagant language, but try anaylzing this calmly and rationally. I was revolted by the first time I saw people speaking in tongues, but....

He thinks of Mary somewhat much as Arius thought of Jesus, EXCEPT that he never speaks of Mary as anything thing other than human. The poet said it" Our tainted nature's solitary boast."

[CindyDawg]

It was still funny. I didn't peek ahead; I read the thread from my previous stopping point forward. It was funny to see the mounting anticipation, and then the full barrage.

The best part was reading Macks, "where are you", I know yall are out there,""someone post something" posts. :)

[drstevej]

Haven't seen Pasolini's Matthew. But no wimpy Jesus bounced the money changers from the temple. And I bet Jesus looked really Jewish!

[RobbyS]

I mean that we cannot pretend that Homer and Isaiah can be placed on the same footing. That is to subscribe to the doctrine of the two truths.

[SoothingDave]

12. Finally, we must say in the words of the apostle Paul, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has the heart of man understood" the beauty, the grandeur, the excellence of Mary, who is indeed a miracle of miracles of grace, nature and glory. "If you wish to understand the Mother," says a saint, "then understand the Son. She is a worthy Mother of God." Hic taceat omnis lingua : Here let every tongue be silent.

Hic taceat omnis lingua. Amen.

Wonk, why did you highlight this passage? Do you think that Mary is not worthy for her role?

SD

[biblewonk]

But it does mean that the Holy Spirit chose to make use of our Blessed Lady, although he had no absolute need of her, in order to become actively fruitful in producing Jesus Christ and his members in her and by her. This is a mystery of grace unknown even to many of the most learned and spiritual of Christians.

I know you don't like the extravagant language, but try anaylzing this calmly and rationally. I was revolted by the first time I saw people speaking in tongues, but....

He thinks of Mary somewhat much as Arius thought of Jesus, EXCEPT that he never speaks of Mary as anything thing other than human. The poet said it" Our tainted nature's solitary boast."

However,

Human? This is not news.

[RobbyS]

It seems to be news that you do not see that he treats her as merely human.

[CindyDawg]

Maybe they love their families more?

Or perhaps they have a life

My husband was watching over my shoulder, cheering me on. Next time he is going to follow on his computer so he can tell me when to stop. A family thing, you know lol.

[CindyDawg]

Jacksonville (Mayport). JJ and my Mom and I. Eddie can't get off work. He says someone has to work to pay the bills. lol. Is that close?

[CindyDawg]

I don't jsut watch TV, I memorize it. LOL.

I know but I didn't want to mention it and hurt your feelings :')

[al_c]

Couldn't be because it would then be on their own time and they wouldn't be getting paid for it?????

Geeze, Reg, is everything a Catholic does wrong in your opinion?!

[biblewonk]

merely human.

Mormons start out as "merely human". This doesn't really mean anything after the "however". God gives a "mere human" Godly power in the RC story about Mary.

[RobbyS]

There is nothing merely human in the power of Peter to convert the crowd on Pentecost. But he himself remained only a man. Whatever grace he had, she had in greater abundance. Or else," Luke" was simply telling about Jesus a conventional story about great men.

[SoothingDave]

God gives a "mere human" Godly power in the RC story about Mary.

And how does that make you feel?

SD