Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
You don't even say the Our Father?
You don't see that as an instruction from the Lord?
We are further apart than I thought. Is this usual for other NCs as well?
The Model prayer or the Lord's Prayer (as NC's will variously refer to the Catholic Our Father) is likely the most well-known scriptural reference known to NC's, besides John 3:16 and Psalm 23.
It will, typically, be recited fairly regularly in the corporate worship of NC's, but usually is seen as a model for the christian's personal prayers to God, during which NC's, generally, strive to open their hearts to God in intimate and spontaneous (as opposed to memorized) communication.
You answer your own question. How did Paul have access to Timothy though Timothy was over a thousand miles away. You dismiss it though scripture so says that it happened. Gee, go figure. How silly of me to expect you to accept the word of the Apostles on something.. Almost forgot only Christians do that. Oh, and the Rome/Babylon connection didn't exist at the time that 1 Peter was written. That would not come for another 35 years or two generations later. So in the instance of 1 Peter, there is no such connection.
HAVOC: "Peter, you'll remember was commissioned to go preach to the lost tribes of the house of Israel" No I didn't remember that. In fact, I don't find the phrase "Lost Tribes" in either the KJV or the NRSV. Do you have scripture? I do remember this though:
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: [6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Helps knowing the scriptures. Acts 15:7 gives reference to a prior event which allowed teaching the gentiles as well as the Jews - not the Gentiles exclusively. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Again, helps knowing scripture.
Here are some historical references for you to ignore:
Well, first of all, I don't ignore actual historical references. This is not a historical reference. That it is old is without question. That it is of authority is of some question. Ever bother to read where this hearsay comes from. Tertullian had no first hand knowledge of Peter having been born in 150 to 160 ad (depending on who you read) - over 80 years after Peter's presumed death (That's 4 to 4 1/2 generations or for you scholars). Here's the root:
"Many writings have been falsely attributed to Pope St. Clement: (1) The 'Second Clementine Epistle to the Corinthians.' Many critics have believed them genuine [they having been read in the Churches]. ... But it is now admitted on all hands that they cannot be by the same author as the genuine [?] Epistle to the Corinthians. ... (2) Two Epistles to Virgins.' (3) At the head of the Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals stand five letters attributed to St. Clement. (4) Ascribed to Clement are the 'Apostolic Constitutions,' 'Apostolic Canons,' and the "Testament of our lord.' (5) The 'Clementines' or 'Pseudo-Clementines,' including the Recognitions and Homilies," hereafter to be noticed. (CE. iv, 14-15; cf. 17, 39.)
The Clementine forgeries cropped up during the 2nd century ad and were added to over time. They were a manufactured history of Peter in Rome. Hmm. I wonder how people in the 2nd and 3rd centuries would get the idea that Pete was in Rome with this forgery floating about (scratching head) Hmmm.. how could it be possible. Let me think.. No wait, I'll get it eventually.
Tertullian is so authoritative that he wholely bought the Pagan oracles (a forgery) and states thus: "the Sibyl is thus proved no liar." - Pallium, ch 2; ANF. 4, 6. Let's not stop there, though, the man also believed that astrology was allowed - "But Magi and astrologers came from the East (Matt. ii). We know the mutual reliance of magic and astrology. The interpreters of the stars, then, were the first to announce Christ's birth, the first to present gifts. ... Astrology now-a-days, forsooth, treats of Christ-is the science of the stars of Christ; not of Saturn, or of Mars. But, however, that science has been allowed until the Gospel, in order that after Christ's birth no one should thenceforward interpret anyone's nativity by the heaven." (On Idolatry, ch. ix; ANF. iii, 65.) Or how about this one: "The serpent crawls into a cave and out of his skin, and uncoils himself in a new youth; with his scales, his years, too, are repudiated. The hyena, if you observe, is of annual sex, alternately masculine and feminine. ... The stag, feeding on the serpent, languishes-from the effects of the poison-into youth." (On the Pallium, ch. iii; ANF. iv, 7.).. Or perhaps this: "Among cures certain substances supplied by nature have very great efficacy; magic also puts on some bandages." (Scorpiace, ch. i; ANF. iii, 633.) Ooh, a favorite one here "You [Pagans] say we worship the sun; so do you." (CE. xiv, 525; Ad. Nationes, xiii; ANF. iii, 123.)
Not done with Tertullian, it's just beginning to run together. Here: "Then take a most complete and unassailable symbol of our hope [of resurrection], subject alike to life and death. I refer to the bird which is peculiar to the East, famous for its singularity, marvelous from its posthumous life, which renews its life in a voluntary death; its dying day is its birthday, for on it it departs and returns: once more a phoenix where just now there was none; once more himself, but just now out of existence; another, yet the same. What can be more express and more significant for our subject; or to what other thing can such a phenomenon bear witness? God even in His own Scripture says: 'The righteous shall flourish like the phoenix' [Greek Septuagint: Dikaios os phoenix anthesei; Ps. xcii, 12]. Must men die once for all, while birds in Arabia are sure of a resurrection?" (Tert., On the Resurrection of the Flesh, ch. xiii; ANF. iii, 554.)
Note the reference to the pheonix.. Oh, and not to be disharmonous with his treatment of frauds, showing no respect one to another, here is Tertullian on another fraud "All these things Pilate did to Christ; and now in fact a Christian in his own convictions, he sent word of Him to the reigning Caesar, who was at the time Tiberius. Yes, and even the Caesars would have believed on Christ, if either the Caesars had not been necessary for the world, or if Christians could have been Caesars." (Apol. ch. xxi; ANF. iii,. 35.) - reference is to the 'official report of Pilate to Caesar'. And how about the fable of the Septuagint as it is known: "To this day, at the temple of Serapis, the librariis of Ptolemy are to be seen, with the identical Hebrew originals in them." (Apology, to the Rulers of the Roman Empire, I, xviii; ANF. iii, 32.) or perhaps on the efficacy of Pagan gods as a witness for Christ - "effective witnesses for Christ";-"Yes, and we shall prove that your own gods are effective witnesses for Christ ... "Yes, and we shall prove that your own gods are effective witnesses for Christ. ... Against the Greeks we urge that Orpheus, at Piera, Musaeus at Athens, (etc.) imposed religious rites. ... Numa Pompilius laid on the Romans a heavy load of costly superstitions. Surely Christ, then, had a right to reveal Deity." (Apol. ch. xxi; ANF. iii, 36.) Finally, let us note Tertullian as being the author or publisher of "The Passion of the Holy Martyrs Perpetua and Felicitas" A fraud - A known fraud. One wonders why such a confused person and good fiction writer would thus recant his 'christianity' and follow the pagans. Oh, didn't know that part of it?
In his Letter to the Romans (A.D. 110), Ignatius of Antioch remarked that he could not command the Roman Christians the way Peter and Paul once did, such a comment making sense only if Peter had been a leader, if not the leader, of the church in Rome.
Presumed Iggy, not proven iggy, that's number one. Number two, one can command anything, that makes them leader of none. And presumed iggy has no direct knoledge of Peter in Rome. Considering Peter cannot be placed in Rome by first hand witness other than through forgery, the best we can opine is that this is hearsay. The worst we can opine is that it is another forgery to fit the majority stance of all other works attributed to him. In any case, hearsay with no authoratative linkage is of little use. Try it in court.
Irenaeus, in Against Heresies (A.D. 190), said that Matthew wrote his Gospel "while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church."
Wow, another person repeating hearsay. Imagine that - must have been reading pseudo Clement alont with Iggy or perhaps Iggy was penned by the same author to give pseudo clement some standing.. hmm. what a thought. At any rate, not first hand and of not authority or use as evidence - thusly rejected.
Clement of Alexandria wrote at the turn of the third century. A fragment of his work Sketches is preserved in Eusebius of Caesarea?s Ecclesiastical History, the first history of the Church. Clement wrote, "When Peter preached the word publicly at Rome, and declared the gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had been for a long time his follower and who remembered his sayings, should write down what had been proclaimed."
Stop the press!! You mean to tell me that there are people here who yet have the gaul to quote from Eusebius?! That fraud is about as useless as the New York times for accuracy and truth, one hopes the paper he is printed upon is soft and absorbent that it would find use next to a stool. I can't believe you try to quote him. Praytell, do you expect to quote Arthur C. Clarke at some point in the future? Or parhaps Witkinstein?
So we have Scriptural consistancy, Testimony from a variety of sources dating back to before the RC Church could be distinguished (so know axe to grind) back to just a few years after Peters martyrdom in Rome (read: living witnesses). And of course, we have the bones.
I'll Give Lactantius a pass. Anyone can look up lactantius on the web and see for themselves his appeals to pagan gods as witness to Christianity and his documentation of a diatribe of Apollo on the forged pagan Sybil. It is of little surprise as usual that these people all give credit to the same false documents. One wonders why. One further wonders why it all happens in the 2nd and 3rd centuries and all ends up tied back to the reign of Constantine and ultimately to Eusebius. Gee, let's put our thinking caps on.
As for your testimonies, you've cited well known and often rehashed hearsay as though we should jump up and down at these hacks and imagine them of authority and great insight. So great an insight have they that they praise frauds and are frauds themselves. Either you are ignorant of their backgrounds or you're regurgitating propaganda or summarizing from an official prop sheet. Which is the case is of no concern and is about as useful as the bones you claim to have. Or did you not know that the Catholic church long claimed to have the bones of Peter and Paul elsewhere before 'finding' them under the Vatican buried under a 2nd century Shrine that was erected on a cemetary as a monument - not a grave marker. Of course this has been known for a very long time. And the site is a mass grave that served the Roman Circuses - IE any moron could walk up that hill, plant a shovel and uncover bones without trying hard. It's a stinking mass grave for cryin out loud. Oh, but let us pretend.... If this wasn't all so sad, it would be laughable.
You are right. I misread it and misqouted you. This was unfair to you. I'm sorry.
"No, I do not only ask God for things, I spend most of my prayer time praising Him for what He's done in my life and going back over my life and how I can now see Him there every step of the way, when at times I thought I was alone. I spend a lot of time contemplating his word, the history of man, and how awe struck i am at his Genius as an inventor.
Actually, we're not that far apart, here. Indeed, much of what you express above is captured in the simple prayer, "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end, Amen." I said this numerous times to myself just this afternoon as I was mowing my lawn and weeding. It was a gorgeous day, here in the Midwest. Our tulips are up and I have both a white and a pink crabapple in my back yard which are both blooming.(Unfortunately, even the dandelions are up.) What I don't understand is why its really all that bad to repeat the prayer I gave above. It expresses perfectly my thoughts as I went about my yard work. Besides, as St. Paul reminds, "We do not know how to pray as we ought, so the Holy Spirit Himself makes intercession for us in groanings we find incomprehensible."(Or words to that effect.) The important thing is that in my own limited way, I am offering Him praise.
"Had you ever considered the possibility that for Him to know how a small animal or a bird or insect needs to function, He may have become one, long enough to know it's every need and fear,and it's shortcomings, and how it fits into the species."
Well, its possible. And I catch in a sense what you're saying. The only problem I have is it seems to limit God a bit. Almost like saying He had to become everything in order to know everything. But I don't think this is actually what you are saying. On another level I see it, though. Everything is part of His creation and, hence, is suffused by His Being. Or, at least, it was until the Fall. I will contemplate this thought, further.
Here's one for you. Have you ever thought about what crossed through Mary and Joseph's mind when the finally found Jesus in the Temple? I picture myself in that situation. I've had my kids wander off, before. Certainly, relief comes to mind. But I've often wondered if, somewhere deep within them, they didn't want to really come down hard on Him. You can sort of see it when Mary asks, basically, "How could you do this to us?" Jesus would have been the perfect child. They must have been flabbergasted He would leave them worrying for three days. You've got to think at some point they thought, "Boy, when I find that kid, He won't be able to sit down for days." And then they must have thought, "But how do you spank God?" -)
I sometimes like to just sit and think about the Holy Family at dinner. The perfect love which must have existed among them. The joy the must have felt, simply being in each other's company. Then, I try to create, to the greatest degree possible, that same atmosphere at our own dinner table.
You love the sound of "I love you daddy" coming from your children because the child is thinking in her mind, I love my daddy, and she's then repeating what her heart is telling her.
If she memorized a long phrase and repeated it so fast you couldn't hear what she said, how long would that please you?
I am being serious. I think there is a place for formal prayer in many people's prayer lives. Certainly, if the prayers are just being done for show, if there is no attempt to offer from one's soul either praise, or thanksgiving, or petitions or a desire for reconciliation to God, then, yes, the prayer becomes 'vain and repetious." But if the purpose is to create in one's soul aspirations pleasing to God, I really don't see the problem. Speaking for myself, honestly, there are times I don't really feel at first like praying. Terrible, isn't it? I'd rather catch a ball game on T.V. or play a computer game or read a book. If, at those times, repetition of, say, an Our Father helps me to remember I am always in Our Lord's presence and concentrates me on Him, then this is a good thing. And, if, when I do want to pray, a particular prayer captures far better the essence of that which I wish to say than I could, myself, then, again, I would say use of formal prayer is a good thing.
Now, do all or even most Catholics use formal prayer in this manner? Maybe not. But by the same token, back in the days when I was a Protestant I can remember some fairly boring prayer services as some participants tried to show off and come up with the most holy-sounding prayer they could. And I don't believe a method of prayer which occasions pride is necessarily a good thing, either. Thus, there are hazards to both formal and free style prayer. Again, though, luckily we have the Spirit making intercessions for us, since none of us knows how to pray as we ought. -)
Thank you for sharing these things Alguy. I have read endlessly through scripture seeking little tidbits of this and that. I've read through the intracacies of excavation reports and archeological evidences. I've poured over volume after volume of histories and evidences both of truth and of lies. And simple notions are not lost on me. I still marvel at the same passage you noted - Mary and Joseph finding the boy, Jesus in study 'did you not know I must be about the Father's work'. I'd have wanted to paddle some sense into the child as well till that came out. Or I try to imagine what the rest of the conversation might have been with the little girl or Lazurus when they were raised - a bit of Hawkeye Pierce comes to mind, though it's a bit of an intrusion to me, it somehow makes me laugh to think of him winking and perhaps saying "stop frightening these people and go let them know you're alright. And by the way if you die again you'll never hear the end of it. (wink)"
So involved are these things and life that the simple things are an absolute joy. And I wish there was more time for them than for the tedium. Our time here reaches an end soon, yet my job is far from over. I have yet begun and I have no doubt as messy as things are now, I will soon wish for the simplicity and ease of the debates we have here. The world is so sure of it's errors that it cannot and does not care for the truth. The religious are more prone to this than any other. And I have come to know why the angel in Revelation keeps uttering the word "Woe". As angry as I was when I first examined the lies I was being fed, I have great pitty for those who will find out at judgement - and none for those who led them to that position. Be just with the kids, and keep striving to emulate the master at dinner and everywhere else. Just remember to keep away from the junk that masquerades as truth and you'll have nothing to be shocked at.
Fact is the advantage of formal prayer is that some people are virtually inarticulate. Certainly a personal, handwritten greeting is nice, but Hallmark has made billions because many people cannot express themselves well.
This is not rocket science.
This is simple personal communication ... as from a child to his/her father.
=) A good one. I doubt I'll ever be able to read those passages again without thinking of this and smiling. -)
It's been a long day, all. May the peace of Our Lord be with you all.
I don't think my situation and the situation of the Pharisees is even close to being anagulous.
Paul wasn't keeping this or any Jewish feast, and he never recommended that any Gentile keep them either.
Whether or not he was keeping the like the Jews did is open for debate, but there is no doubt he was keeping the feast in the way that Christ intended it to be kept and that he taught gentiles this too. Why else would he reference it?
Today, it’s a daily cleansing from within, and it’s up to each one of us to cleanse his own heart, and not to do it as ancient Israel did, which was strictly a physical cleansing of the leaven from the dough, it was a type, but today we keep it from within.
I agree. But just because a physical action has a spiritual component doesn't invalidate the physical action. Actions speak louder than words. If that's not true then you never ever get to complain about Catholics doing Mary worship or idol worship again because they too claim that it's the spirit, not the actions that count.
God knows the physical action of equating leaven with sin and abastaining from leaven on a yearly basis serves as a reminder of exactly what our goal as Christians should be. Physical actions reinforce and teach spiritual principle. We are physical creatures with a spiritual component. That's why physical actions with a spiritual component are great tools for teaching us. Though you now seemingly despise them, they seem to have effectively taught you.
As far as I can tell, there is no Jewish feast coming up when this letter was written to the Corinthians, so it’s not likely that's what influenced Paul’s analogy.
Oh come on, why would he mention it if it weren't in his mind or the minds of his brethen?
1Co 16:8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost.
Notice that later in the chapter he says he's going to stay in Ephesus until Pentecost. That would mean he's writing the letter at some point before Pentecost. What's the last holy day before Pentecost? Hmmm....
For a Jew who you claim attended all the Jewish feast, here are 17 years that Paul told us he never went up to Jerusalem period, so he certainly wasn’t attending the many yearly feast that had to be kept in Jerusalem.
I never claimed he "attended all the Jewish feasts" and certainly not in Jerusalem. I claimed that he kept the feasts of the Lord as a new covenant believer does. I don't keep the feasts of the Lord as the Jews do either.
You always seem to make the mistake of associating God's Holy Days as being "Jewish". While it's true that Jews keep the holy days, they certainly don't keep them as new covenant believers because they don't believe that there is a new covenant.
The main point being that I find it absurd that Paul all of a sudden just stopped celebrating the days he KNEW God created. The only scriptures he knew said that God meant for all of Israel to celebrate the feasts forever.
Exo 12:17 And ye shall observe [the feast of] unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
Paul certainly knew he was an Israelite:
Phi 3:4 though I also have cause of trust in flesh. If any other one doth think to have trust in flesh, I more;
Phi 3:5 circumcision on the eighth day! of the race of Israel! of the tribe of Benjamin! a Hebrew of Hebrews! according to law a Pharisee!
Woohoo says Paul. I'm an Israelite. The only inspired words of God I've ever read says that Israel must keep the feast. I think I'm going to make up my own mind and NOT keep the feast. Maybe I'll wait a few hundred years until I can start keeping Easter, Christmas, and Halloween.
Now don't you think that the Jews would have LOVED to have pinned it on Paul that he was going around teaching that we could disobey God on this issue? Yet they didn't. Why? Simple, because he wasn't:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.
I'm fine, thanks.
Take care. No fights! Play nice!
I shoulda known... I thought I saw her in Burger King the other day.
I'd better not do it anymore. I've quoted Tertullian and am utterly unaware of who he is. Of course it was to make an anti-magisterium point. :-)
Hey you'd better take it easy on that pagan stuff. It upsets alot of people in here. :-)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.