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To: JHavard
"Please be honest with me AlguyA, are you saying you'd never get tired of hearing the same thing repeated over and over for a life time? Be serious."

You love the sound of "I love you daddy" coming from your children because the child is thinking in her mind, I love my daddy, and she's then repeating what her heart is telling her.

If she memorized a long phrase and repeated it so fast you couldn't hear what she said, how long would that please you?

I am being serious. I think there is a place for formal prayer in many people's prayer lives. Certainly, if the prayers are just being done for show, if there is no attempt to offer from one's soul either praise, or thanksgiving, or petitions or a desire for reconciliation to God, then, yes, the prayer becomes 'vain and repetious." But if the purpose is to create in one's soul aspirations pleasing to God, I really don't see the problem. Speaking for myself, honestly, there are times I don't really feel at first like praying. Terrible, isn't it? I'd rather catch a ball game on T.V. or play a computer game or read a book. If, at those times, repetition of, say, an Our Father helps me to remember I am always in Our Lord's presence and concentrates me on Him, then this is a good thing. And, if, when I do want to pray, a particular prayer captures far better the essence of that which I wish to say than I could, myself, then, again, I would say use of formal prayer is a good thing.

Now, do all or even most Catholics use formal prayer in this manner? Maybe not. But by the same token, back in the days when I was a Protestant I can remember some fairly boring prayer services as some participants tried to show off and come up with the most holy-sounding prayer they could. And I don't believe a method of prayer which occasions pride is necessarily a good thing, either. Thus, there are hazards to both formal and free style prayer. Again, though, luckily we have the Spirit making intercessions for us, since none of us knows how to pray as we ought. -)

48,787 posted on 04/26/2003 8:58:43 PM PDT by AlguyA
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To: AlguyA
Now, do all or even most Catholics use formal prayer in this manner? Maybe not. But by the same token, back in the days when I was a Protestant I can remember some fairly boring prayer services as some participants tried to show off and come up with the most holy-sounding prayer they could. And I don't believe a method of prayer which occasions pride is necessarily a good thing, either. Thus, there are hazards to both formal and free style prayer. Again, though, luckily we have the Spirit making intercessions for us, since none of us knows how to pray as we ought. -)

Pray without ceasing. Ring any bells :) I am with the others on repetitios prayers and prayers by wrote to the extent that they are repeated in vain. Constantly praying is worthy of merit as it follows that which we are taught to do by the Apostles. Where I depart is on vanity and directing the prayers to the wrong place. Praying after the fashion of Jesus "our Father, who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name.." This I cannot fault. It is wise and I style my own prayers after it so that I remember to cover everything and everyone I must. It's like a laundry list if you will. But when one wanders off into praying to dead people (esp Mary and the saints) that's where I have to draw a line in the sand with scripture and challenge the activity with "IT IS WRITTEN!"

Finally, you didn't have a problem with pentecostals - you had a problem with people. Did you not know that every congregation has it's show offs. Did you not know that most churches are full of people who haven't the first clue. It is written that there are few that follow the path. Yet so many are surprised and shocked and start changing religions based on the people rather than the teaching. I'm not suggesting this is the case with you; but, I can tell you that the man who pastored my church before I arrived there committed adultery with a woman from his congregation and spent the rest of his life angry at the congregation that then rejected him as minister. He raised up another church full of those that left with him when he was found unfit to minister and would tell everyone what he had done to build that church - never a word about what God had done - it was all him. I know this first hand because I went to hear him speak just to please a friend. His church was so full of the devil I never went back. Hatred and angst boiled up from the pulpit and the entire congregation was contentious and confused. Incidentally, the man that was raised up as pastor after he left the original church was a true man of God and still is. This is why I say I don't endorse a brand name on a church - it is the message and the minister that must be considered. If the message and minister are worthless, then the congregation will be dead. If the congregation is dead and the minister and message is correct, then there is hope.

I've been in dead congregations and live ones. I've been in churches where there were satanists in attendance and the associate pastors were either oppressed or posessed. When your dad is a minister and travels widely, you see a lot that you wouldn't ordinarily experience. I haven't seen it all; but, I've seen most of it. I was standing in line at a walmart one day about 7 years ago now, and I had the urge to rebuke the devil suddenly. The guy in front of me was so surrounded in evil that I just wanted to run to get away from him. He turned and looked at me while conversing with the attendant and he was wearing a collar. Episcopal I believe. He said 'God bless', to which I could only reply, "and I hope you find him." He was stunned and looked to both sides and back at me before leaving - and not in a huff. I'm sure God was dealing with him. But this is what you get when Pastors come from Schools instead of from clergy. Their spiritual standing is largely overlooked in favor of what they "know". A problem that I'm not unfamiliar with in my debates here.

Most seem to think that what they "know" is all they need - that they can reason their way through it all. People are so ignorant of spirituality they think it's a matter of how one behaves and presents themselves or how pious they seem. Spirituality is not a matter of the physical. And the name above the church can be anything under the sun. If the message is not Christ's, the sign might say Lutheran, Baptist, Catholic or Assemblies - But the spirit within over-writes that sign with "prince of the air". This is why it is so difficult to find a good church. Most people go shopping for comfortable people or a minister that doesn't challenge them or tickles their ears. Conviction makes them want to leave - and Conviction is the word making one extremely self-aware or self-conscious. That makes people want to get away because thei knowledge of what they're doing wrong is nothing that most people want to deal with. That's why Satanists have a real tough time in spirit filled congregations. The level of conviction making them want to bolt is like the tension holding a bullet in a barrel before the powder behind it reaches critical enough mass to expell the slug.

No matter what else you have, if you have the wrong message, you are the poorest soul in the universe. And that's likely a proverb. If it isn't, it should be.

48,805 posted on 04/26/2003 10:03:25 PM PDT by Havoc (If you can't be frank all the time are you lying the rest of the time?)
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