The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[ventana]

When you say "most often repeated . . . " don't you think should qualify with the acknowledgment that you are excluding most of the world's inhabitants?

"Most often repeated by Catholic Apologists". OK. "Most often repeated". Absoloutely not!

I should always strive to be more clear. I meant most often repeated by Jesus.

Mat 26:26, Mk 14:22 Lk 22.19 Jhn 6:51, 6:53, 6:54, 6:55, 6:56, 6:57, 6:57, 6:58 Not to mention Pauls supporting testimony 1Co 11:24, 11:27, 11:29

v.

[JHavard]

Peter called Rome the city, Rome the empire Babylon, not the Church there.

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

He is clearly talking about the church that was in in, see post #48,751 by Havoc. Lol

Imagine that you are sitting in a field listening to Jesus preach. In that context, when He told you to call no man Father, on that day,

On that day? ….So it was included in the Bible so we could see what Jesus said for them to do on that one particular day only,…. like God gave the Commandments for those at the foot of Sinai on that day only, huh? Yehhhhh Righht Lol

He could only have meant your own earthly father.

Of course, that’s much more likely then Him meaning exactly what he said.

Mt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

It’s obvious He was saying, “And call no earthly father, your spiritual father. If he is not your earthly father/dad, then he must be your spiritual father, and you know you have only one spiritual Father, and he’s in heaven.

I am so glad you asked :-) Go get a Rosary and start Praying it. You will see for yourself.

Uh huh, and I might pray to Muhammad while I’m at it too, because it would be the same thing to me.

My original question P#87,728
JH - Or this, "There is no mediator between man and God but Christ Jesus.

Your answer on p#48,730
ventana - No argument from me on that one. Mary's prayers, and anyone else's, on my behalf are most welcomed however.

You imply that all Mary can do, is pray for you in regards to your prayers to her, since you also implied she can’t answer prayers herself.

JH - Are you saying now that she has no power to answer prayers, only take them to the Lord?

ventana - I don't recall having made any statements on NES on this subject prior to this. Can you provide a post #?

It sure sounds to me like you made that implication, don’t you?

JH - How else could she listen to the millions of daily prayers, and then organize them, and take them to God and explain what so and so needs?

ventana - Not my area.

Are you saying you can’t answer this, but someone else can?

JH - Have you thought how ridiculous this sounds?

ventana - Well that's a bit rude.

Sorry if it's a bit rude, but have you considered how strange it sounds, when you believe something, but have never understood why you believe it? You’re praying to a dead person to intervene in your life, and you have no biblical text or even logic to offer as to how it’s possible.

JH

[Jael]

Excellent post, excellent.

The Queen of Heaven exerts a srong emotional pull over those who don't know who she really is.

Ever notice that the only thing Christ ever called Mary is "woman"?

[ventana]

The Rosary is the Apostles Creed, the our Father, the Glory Be, and quotes from Scripture, along with asking Mary to pray for us, recited while meditating on the Mysteries of Jesus' birth, life, passion & ministry. It is hardly comparable to praying to Muhammad.

If you have any problem involving yourself with any of the above, you might as well be a Muhammadan.

v.

[OLD REGGIE]

I should always strive to be more clear. I meant most often repeated by Jesus.

Mat 26:26, Mk 14:22 Lk 22.19 Jhn 6:51, 6:53, 6:54, 6:55, 6:56, 6:57, 6:57, 6:58 Not to mention Pauls supporting testimony 1Co 11:24, 11:27, 11:29

Jesus used the phrase once! The fact you might find it more than once in Scripture doesn't change the fact.

Also, let's be very clear. Your statement is the phrase "This is my body" is repeated by Jesus in John 6:51, 6:53, 6:55, 6:56, 6:57. and 6:58.

The answer is NO! You are totally wrong. Is it clear, 100% wrong? Are you now resorting to the tricks used by Catholic Answers of listing "facts" unsupported by Scripture in the hopes they won't be read?

Have you decided to ignore my question concerning why the RCC changed the practice of communion as taught by Jesus?

[OLD REGGIE]

The Rosary is the Apostles Creed, the our Father, the Glory Be, and quotes from Scripture, along with asking Mary to pray for us, recited while meditating on the Mysteries of Jesus' birth, life, passion & ministry. It is hardly comparable to praying to Muhammad.

If you have any problem involving yourself with any of the above, you might as well be a Muhammadan.

When I was still a RC I remember Cardinal Cushing saying the Rosary. He could mumble his way through the whole thing in mere seconds. The fact that there was no time for any human to meditate at that speed is meaningless to you isn't it?

Have you ever paid attention to anyone "telling" their beads? Zip, zip, zip, zip, zip, etc., so fast it is impossible for a human to "meditate"?

Are you trying to kid anybody?

[JHavard]

The Rosary is the Apostles Creed, the our Father, the Glory Be, and quotes from Scripture, along with asking Mary to pray for us, recited while meditating on the Mysteries of Jesus' birth, life, passion & ministry. It is hardly comparable to praying to Muhammad.

If you believe that’s the way God meant for you to communicate with Him, that’s fine, but I never say the same prayer twice, and I say no memorized prayers.

I would feel like a fake if I did, because once you ask God something, do you think he forgets what it was, so you have to repeat it over and over every day of your life?

Would you like it if every time your children talked to you, they repeated the same thing over and over in monotone, the same memorized thing, or would you like them to talk as they would to some one they loved, and in a sincere heartfelt way, and told you what was on their minds and what their concerns were?

Personally, the day I start repeating a memorized prayer, it’ll be because my mind has gone and I can’t be spontaneous any longer.

If you have any problem involving yourself with any of the above, you might as well be a Muhammadan.

And when I begin to pray like that, Muhammad will probably be the only one listening.

JH :-)

[AlguyA]

"I would feel like a fake if I did, because once you ask God something, do you think he forgets what it was, so you have to repeat it over and over every day of your life?"

Are you saying when you pray, all you do is ask God for "something?"

[AlguyA]

"Would you like it if every time your children talked to you, they repeated the same thing over and over in monotone, "

Well, I would not like it if they did it in monotone, but I never get tired of hearing them say, "I love you, Dad."

[IMRight]

"A Pope is infallible when teaching on matters of faith and morals". Right?

Wrong. Certainly a part of it, but not the whole. See below.

"A Pope cannot then be guilty of heresy". Right?

Wrong. He certainly can be. See below.

"Pope" Honorius was convicted of heresy and anathematized by the 6th Ecumenical Council. Right?

Got one right. Thus disproving one or both of the above.

Honorius either wasn't a Pope or the Pope is not infallible when teaching on matters of faith or morals. Right?

A logical conclusion based on incorrect assumptions. Thus incorrect. (But in a very logical way). :-)

[IMRight]

Ever notice that the only thing Christ ever called Mary is "woman"?

Ever notice that the only thing God ever called Eve is "woman"?

Adds another point for the "second Eve" crowd.

[Uri’el-2012]

ventana; JHavard

The Rosary is the Apostles Creed, the our Father, the Glory Be, and quotes from Scripture, along with asking Mary to pray for us, recited while meditating on the Mysteries of Jesus' birth, life, passion & ministry. It is hardly comparable to praying to Muhammad.
If you have any problem involving yourself with any of the above, you might as well be a Muhammadan.
v.

48,764 posted on 04/26/2003 2:34 PM MDT by ventana

Where are we commended to meditate and if we are to meditate upon what topics are we to meditate ?

Matthew 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say,
`Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" [Psalm 118:26]


Barukh haba b'Shem Adonai
Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord
Y'shua HaMashiach

chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[Uri’el-2012]

AlguyA; JHavard

JH>"Would you like it if every time your children talked to you, they repeated the same thing over and over in monotone, "
AA>Well, I would not like it if they did it in monotone, but I never get tired of hearing them say, "I love you, Dad."

48,769 posted on 04/26/2003 3:33 PM MDT by AlguyA

Amen !

Baruch HaShem Adonai Yeshua HaMashiach

Praise the Holy Name of the L-rd Jesus the Christ

chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[IMRight]

Where are we commended to meditate and if we are to meditate upon what topics are we to meditate ?

Hey Chuck. Long time no post. How've you been?

"Commanded" to meditate may be harsh, but it is certainly not forbiden. It is probably mentioned a couple dozen times in the OT alone. Usually the topics are His ways, His Laws/precepts, His works (which of course would include "His birth, life, passion and ministry"), on God himself, etc.

Do you associate "meditation" with "transendental meditation" or some other new age cr@p?

[JHavard]

Are you saying when you pray, all you do is ask God for "something?"

I know you didn't intentially put that "for" in there, especially when I said "asking God things," so I won't mention it. :-)

No, I do not only ask God for things, I spend most of my prayer time praising Him for what He's done in my life and going back over my life and how I can now see Him there every step of the way, when at times I thought I was alone.

I spend a lot of time contemplating his word, the history of man, and how awe struck i am at his Genius as an inventor.

Had you ever considered the possibility that for Him to know how a small animal or a bird or insect needs to function, He may have become one, long enough to know it's every need and fear,and it's shortcomings, and how it fits into the species.

So yes, I do more then ask for things.

JH :-)

[JHavard]

Well, I would not like it if they did it in monotone, but I never get tired of hearing them say, "I love you, Dad."

Please be honest with me AlguyA, are you saying you'd never get tired of hearing the same thing repeated over and over for a life time? Be serious.

You love the sound of "I love you daddy" coming from your children because the child is thinking in her mind, I love my daddy, and she's then repeating what her heart is telling her.

If she memorized a long phrase and repeated it so fast you couldn't hear what she said, how long would that please you?

I can't help but remember the story told about Martin Luther, and how his friends mocked him because they could say their prayers by rote, and in a fraction of the time it took him, because he considered what he was saying.

As a Catholic, does it seem to you that his friends were missing the whole point, or don’t you think it matters?

JH :-)

[Havoc]

The Rosary is the Apostles Creed, the our Father, the Glory Be, and quotes from Scripture, along with asking Mary to pray for us, recited while meditating on the Mysteries of Jesus' birth, life, passion & ministry. It is hardly comparable to praying to Muhammad.

The apostle's Creed is an invention of Catholicism. And If I'm not very much mistaken, "Invention" goes a great long way to describing it for what it is. Praying to Mary is at once useless and sin simultaneously, one might as well be pagan. And as it happens, one who does, is. Remember the 'you cannot serve two masters' statement. Ah, wait, forgot - you don't much buy into all that stuff the Apostles were teaching, your philosophy trumps those nits. You're one of those brilliant double agents I'd assume - so cleverly disguised as the enemy wearing our side's uniform, I'd hardly know the difference If you hadn't spoken. But do carry on. Perhaps you'll relate the tale for us about how blessed we'd be to shrink heads for God and king George.

[ventana]

How then would Timothy have access to Mark if he, like Peter, was a thousand miles away in Mesopotamia? Sorry, doesn't wash. The Rome/Babylon connection is scriptural.

HAVOC: "Peter, you'll remember was commissioned to go preach to the lost tribes of the house of Israel"

No I didn't remember that. In fact, I don't find the phrase "Lost Tribes" in either the KJV or the NRSV. Do you have scripture? I do remember this though:

Act 15:7  
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Somehow the above passage from Acts reads a bit different than your claim.

HAVOC: "I Peter And II Timothy were written at roughly the same time according to dating methodology"

Ah, methodology, fascinating. care to elaborate? I would love to learn all about this methodology.

Here are some historical references for you to ignore:

"Tertullian, in The Demurrer Against the Heretics (A.D. 200), noted of Rome, "How happy is that church. . . where Peter endured a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned in a death like John?s [referring to John the Baptist, both he and Paul being beheaded]." Fundamentalists admit Paul died in Rome, so the implication from Tertullian is that Peter also must have been there. It was commonly accepted, from the very first, that both Peter and Paul were martyred at Rome, probably in the Neronian persecution in the 60s.

In the same book, Tertullian wrote that ?this is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrnaeans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John; like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter.? This Clement, known as Clement of Rome, later would be the fourth pope. (Note that Tertullian didn?t say Peter consecrated Clement as pope, which would have been impossible since a pope doesn?t consecrate his own successor; he merely ordained Clement as priest.) Clement wrote his Letter to the Corinthians perhaps before the year 70, just a few years after Peter and Paul were killed; in it he made reference to Peter ending his life where Paul ended his.

In his Letter to the Romans (A.D. 110), Ignatius of Antioch remarked that he could not command the Roman Christians the way Peter and Paul once did, such a comment making sense only if Peter had been a leader, if not the leader, of the church in Rome.

Irenaeus, in Against Heresies (A.D. 190), said that Matthew wrote his Gospel "while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church." He then says the two departed Rome, perhaps to attend the Council of Jerusalem (A.D. 49). A few lines later he notes that Linus was named as Peter's successor, that is, the second pope, and that next in line were Anacletus (also known as Cletus), and then Clement of Rome.

Clement of Alexandria wrote at the turn of the third century. A fragment of his work Sketches is preserved in Eusebius of Caesarea?s Ecclesiastical History, the first history of the Church. Clement wrote, "When Peter preached the word publicly at Rome, and declared the gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had been for a long time his follower and who remembered his sayings, should write down what had been proclaimed."

Lactantius, in a treatise called The Death of the Persecutors, written around 318, noted that "When Nero was already reigning (Nero reigned from 54-68), Peter came to Rome, where, in virtue of the performance of certain miracles which he worked by that power of God which had been given to him, he converted many to righteousness and established a firm and steadfast temple to God."

So we have Scriptural consistancy, Testimony from a variety of sources dating back to before the RC Church could be distinguished (so know axe to grind) back to just a few years after Peters martyrdom in Rome (read: living witnesses). And of course, we have the bones.

HAVOC: "How oft must it be noted that there is no basis for this."

Ditto

As oft as you opine, with no contradicting evidence whatsoever, that the plain and simple facts are not so.

v.

[RobbyS]

Well-known fact: Mary is a figure of the Church.

[ventana]

I would say the very existence of the Gospels is a commendation to meditate on their contents. You could do worse than to meditate, as we do, on the birth, life, ministry and passion of Jesus.
v.