The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[malakhi]

I recently read a short blurb about Babylon in connection with the movement of 3rd MD past the site. According to it the city was in the First Century pretty much nothing.

That may be true of the city itself, but the name also referred to the surrounding region as well.

[Havoc]

Give me a Tall ship and a star to stear her by.
The tall ship is always the problem.. LOL

[Havoc]

Well, the problem frankly is that they think 2 dimensionally. They see a term used in the Bible and think because it appears there that it must apply everywhere - the critical review doesn't happen. It doesn't occur that This is a collection of works written over roughly a 60 year period after the Death of the Annointed one. It also doesn't occurr to them that Revelation is prophecy and recorded from a vision given from Jesus. The book itself says so. Pointing this out has always drawn incredulity from Catholics. Incredulity that one can believe that the author had a vision, though they have no problem with the transfiguration (oops yes they do- don't understand it was a vision - 2 dimensional again..). They don't want to be bothered with the blatent obvious, especially when they haven't been trained to think for themselves but to let another think for them. You know, use it or lose it syndrome. If you don't excercise that muscle, it goes to flab. There's also a spiritual component to that. But there is no linkage between 1 Peter and Revelation without redefining the laws of space/time and physics not to mention of life and death and continuity. Nothing minor - don't you know.

No, Paul vouches for where Peter was if only by accident. He was ministering to the lost tribes of the house of Israel at Babylon in the fertile cresent where they had gone when they left during the Diaspora. It fits his mission as he was commissioned by Christ and it fits in countless other ways which I have previously listed at length. But it gives them fits because it makes their founders to be liars, dupes or at the very least, grossly misinformed because the sources they drew from were wrong. Any one of these could be the case, I would proffer the likelyhood is all. Given their track record, it's difficult to imagine otherwise.

[RobbyS]

The Scriptures existed both in Greek and Hebrew forms before they acted. As you all have noted above,the Gospels used the Greek forms.

[CindyDawg]

Actually you and my son sound like yall have something in common. He wants one with no kids or baggage either but he is expected this perfect woman to be able to run a 10 minute mile too !(I am not joking). Yall are being too picky. God may decide to send you a good woman that has had a rough time and needs a good man. And yes she may be catholic :').

[Havoc]

Who set the OT canon that you prefer? The scribes and pharisees, or their spiritual descendents who are denounced in the Christian scriptures for false teachings. Since the establishment of this canon happened about the same time that the same Jewish leaders expelled Christians from their assemblies, I fail to see why we should respect their authority.

Robby, the Cannonization of the OT books was a formality, not a major contrivance. The books had been in use and cared for with no demonstrable change for as long before Christ as your sect has existed after christ - longer actually. Your sect doesn't gain a name till Theodosius. So, much longer. And with strict supervision and control.

As to why you should respect Jewish authority on Jewish Canon, it's so dictated in scripture and reiterated by Jesus or dont you remember that oft quoted verse when Christ tells the people to do as they say but not as they do - respecting their office. Their office ended when Christ arose and ascended to the Father. We all became priests looking out for ourselves with the assistance of a teacher (pastor) and the Holy Spirit. That you have no respect for their authority is to be expected given the level of respect demonstrated for what's contained in their canon which I might add is contained even in your own. Whether in error or not, Catholicism doesn't respect the books of it's own canon. Last I checked, Ecclesiastes is in there, is it not. Yet Ecclesiastes 9 might as well be erased - it is certainly unheeded. As I've said, the Bible is 66 books and you know to which I refer.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?

[2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

[3] For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

[4] God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

[RobbyS]

The canon was revised after the destruction of the temple by leaders who rejected Jesus as Christ.

[RobbyS]

Paul expressly said that Peter was in Babylon(ia)?

[Havoc]

Heck with that - run a ten minute mile. I'm not sure I could do that. I'm so out of shape I'm almost certain I cannot - Might make 13. LOL. That is a little excessive. I have to admit, I am picky. I don't mind baggage as bad as I let on, I want kids of my own though. And taking on others at this point in my life would mean I'll likely never have one of my own. That isn't acceptable. Not if there's even a remote chance to experience the birth of my own child.

I've been through a lot in my life - more than my share of bad women and not enough good ones. I've been walked on enough to have had my fill long ago. And I've little sympathy for gold diggers. I won't be unequally yolked with someone from another faith; so, if I marry a convert, it will happen long before we march down the isle. Marriage is a commitment, not an experiment. And there will be no retraction from me on divorcees. Between faith and that, there is a line that will absolutely not be crossed. That is required pickiness. And with it I shall not bicker ;)

[Havoc]

Haven't paid attention to all I said, have you?

[Havoc]

See previous.

[tHe AnTiLiB]

NEWGEEZER-Here are some I don't understand why fundamentalists don't take literally.

Sacrament of Reconciliation-

Mark 6:12-13  "So they went out and preached that men should repent.  And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them."

Importance of the Pope-

Matthew 16:18-19  "And I tell you, you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound to heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

 

[tHe AnTiLiB]

Not how it should be seen. Just because Maccabees is largely about his campaign against Nicanor, doesn't mean it is just history. Maccabees offers the same insight that the rest of the Old Testament does. You could say the Gospels are just history, Ezekiel is just history, or Nehemiah.

[tHe AnTiLiB]

The Passage right before Proverbs 14:12.

Proverbs 14:11  "The house of the wicked will be destroyed will be destroyed, but the tent of the upright will flourish."

Instead of spending all your time trying to bash the RCC, defend your own. e right before Proverbs 14:12 or

[tHe AnTiLiB]

No, that was but there evil leader, not its people, they will rebuild. And I haven't noticed the four winds of the earth come to ahault. Or a third of the ocean exterminated.

[tHe AnTiLiB]

Does the Bible mention Mary's death? I admit there is no scripture proving that God did do it, but it says that fundamentalists should not make such a big deal of it.

[IMRight]

Of course, this dual usage of "Babylon" presents as much difficulty to the Catholic interpretation, but in reverse. Those who want to identify the Babylon of 1 Peter with Rome must explain why the Bablyon of Revelation does not refer to Rome.

Nope. Both refer to Rome. You only have to spin if you think one does and the other does not. I don't think that it is the church's position that Daniel was not refering to Rome.

[IMRight]

Reporter Who Found Papers On Galloway Also Saw A Box Titled "U.S"

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/898579/posts

"Two more box files were labelled "Britain". Others were labelled "United States", "Security Council" and "France"."

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I was going to stay out of this discussion but since Cindy threw her 2 Cents in so will I:), especially since my name has been mentioned.

Where are you looking for this perfect woman? Do you go to church? Look there.

Becky

[Quester]

Mark 6:12-13 "So they went out and preached that men should repent. And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them."

There is Protestants/Fundamentalist ministry in both of these areas.

Importance of the Pope-

Matthew 16:18-19 "And I tell you, you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound to heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Even if it was granted that Peter and the other apostles had this kind of establishing ministry, why presume that this authority survived the Apostolic age ?

Think of it this way.

The Scriptures say that JESUS is the chief cornerstone of the Church ... and that the Apostles are the foundation.

When you build a house (building), you complete the foundation before you begin to build any of the rest of the building.

If the Apostles ministry was foundational, and the Church was built upon that ministry ... is there any further need for any foundational ministry ?

Is it even appropriate to continue work on the foundation ... after beginning to build the main part of the structure ?