Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Shut up Reggie. :)
BigMack
According to his e-mail,
I am a long time lurker on the thread (almost since the beginning) and have seen many "discussions" repeat themselves. I usually peak on breaks at work so I don't post. The current discussion about the sinless nature of Mary reminded me of something I read recently that I have never seen discussed on this issue...
So I assume my mystery correspondent is someone who is able to lurk, but not post.
Is it this "lurkers" position (or yours) that childbirth is a sin which requires atonement? OR is it simply a ritual cleansing?
Perhaps our lurker friend can e-mail me his reply, and I can post it. From the Jewish perspective, sin offerings are for "unintentional" sins (call it "venial" vs. "mortal" sin). As you note, the passage does include the element of ritual cleansing.
LOL!
Don't worry, you'll get your usual cut. ;o)
Great. No need for you to keep attempting other explanations then.
As I read it, he was comparing it to confessing sin in advance of it being committed: "father, forgive me today fo the sin I'm gonna do tomorrow".
Hmmm...
If they have no sin, why do they need baptism?
Thus sayeth Havoc. You're a laugh riot. Let's let God decide what He can do, OK? LOL
Listen up, God did not violate Mary's Free Will. She could have chosen not to cooperate with God, that is why we praise her for her fiat. If she was a slave, then we would not consider her any more than that.
Do try to stay consistent. LOL
If he does it for one, he must do it for all else he is unjust.
LOL. So the clay says to the potter. You should go talk to the Calvinists. Learn them a thing or two about how God plays fair. LOL
When exactly is it that you presume she got forgiven and never sinned again? Hmm? After Christ died? Until he passed and rose again, the sacrifice was not complete.
No, dear friend, like I said, at Mary's conception she was saved. She never sinned at all. Please try to learn a thing or two about the Catholic faith sometime before you die. You might be surprised. Put down the comic books.
As for "the sacrifice not being complete" you again, as I jsut told you, constrain God in the time He created. Try to imagine a God bigger than time, who is time's master and not time's servant. Such a little god you have. Has to sit around and wait.
Do you intend to tell us Mary was sin free and therefore offered a turtle dove for her sins?
She offered a turtle dove in obedience ot the Law. Duh. What is the "sin" you think she had resulting from childbirth?
Care to tell us why God can somehow make Mary Sin free from birth to death and can't just do it for all of us by caveat?
Who said He couldn't? Talk about tying God's hands. LOL
God chooses to save Mary in this special way. God has not chosen to save you in that manner. Deal with it.
SD
That's the line I found most interesting.
Seems like every time that came up in the first few centuries... all of the Christians knocked it down.
Interesting, also, because the Essenes, and the groups which followed them, practiced daily "rebaptizing". This continues even today in the Mandaean/Sabeaen sects.
But there is no particular sin that is being expiated in this particular offering following a childbirth? No particular sin that a woman who gives birth must be "guilty" of, by definition?
SD
By 350 they outnumbered the orthodox Christians in Africa, and each city had its opposing orthodox and Donatist bishops. It was the teaching of St. Augustine, as presented in his writings and at the debate between orthodox and Donatist bishops at Carthage (411), that turned the tide against Donatism. Strong state suppression and ascetic excesses among some of their own members further reduced their number. The remnants of the schismatic movement had vanished along with African Christianity before the advent of the Islamic invaders.
Vanished! Hmmmmmmmmm.
Or, it could be that Greek wasn't their first language, and they wrote it in the idiom with which they were accustomed.
Hmmm... If they have no sin, why do they need baptism?
You should understand the difference I was drawing between inherited "sin" and personal sin. Wonk and Havoc and the boys want to take literally "all men have sinned" which to me speaks of personal sin.
So I ask, to no convincing answer, what sin a newborn has committed.
They want to make absolute this statement from Scripture but then can not even begin to explain the obvious exceptions.
SD
Like calling close kin "brothers?"
SD
It's not an interpretation of what he said. It's unambiguous. Period.
But you dodged my question: Was John the Baptist the son of Elizabeth and Zechariah?
No, I didn't dodge the question. I said however it was accomplished, christ has answered it. Elizabeht and Zechariah could well have given birth to a new body for Elias - or they may have found and adopted him. Who knows and who cares. His physical body could not enter heaven, we know this from Paul. So one can play any number of games with this, it changes nothing Christ said - and without any ambiguity, he stated that John and Elias are one in the same.
His appearance to 500 people. The testimonies of some of these that survive to this day and are powerful. The astonishing number of hearts that become completely changed by the power of His ultimate atoning sacrifice thru the Ruach Ha Kodesh. (including mine).
So in general, would you agree with C.S. Lewis that it is "the myth that happens also to be true" (my paraphrase)?
That's easy.
I'll admit that an immaculate conception would be preferable to hot coals...
Why do you think Jesus is more holy before He is born than after He is born? Why do you think is more Holy before He was born than after He was born? And what scripture supports this idea?
Interesting. I can see the distinction.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.