Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Easter is celebrated on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox. Thus, the solar event of the Equinox is the deciding factor, and not a mere calculation based upon the Hebrew lunar month.
Yes, the full moon also comes into play, but only as a secondary factor.
SD
Ok. Are we like in the middle of some discussion I'm unaware of?
SD
I dunno. I would think that if you don't believe it you are foolish. Its up to you whether you want to refute or not. I disagree that there are too many errors to refute it. I just think your chicken.
Oh well, back to the front I go.
Nope. Nobody worships Mary. And she is prayed to as an intercessor, just like we can intercede for others.
It is not surprising, then, that the Roman Catholic Church would choose Ephesus as the place to convene an ecumenical council in 431 in order to declare officially that Mary is the "Mother of God."
Gulit by association. I suppose if the had held it in Athens we would be accused of worshipping some Athenian god. Any port in a storm.
This began a steady increase of Mary worship through the centuries and lasting until today.
Nope. Nobody worships Mary. She is not divine.
According to the August 1997 Newsweek cover story, for example, over 4 million petitions have been received by the Vatican to declare Mary co-redemptrix with Jesus.
Yes, and? This guy is trafficing in the ignorance of his followers as to what "co-" means in this context. He is deliberately misleading people.
If this becomes dogma, all Catholic prayers to Jesus will be expected to go first to Mary.
Again, this is not true at all. I have never even heard such nonsense. I suppose the petition or definition where this is stated would be too much to ask for this charlatan to produce as evidence?
Pope John Paul II is a declared worshipper of Mary and he bows before her and prays to her as a mediator.
The Pope worships God alone. This is a lie.
Her idols have proliferated more around the world than Diana's ever had.
Idols are gods. Mary is not a god and her statues are not idols.
Mary is a skillful adaptive deception of the Queen of Heaven.
And here I thought she was the mother of Our Lord.
Since Diana became worthless after the spiritual warfare of Paul and John, the Queen of Heaven needed another disguise.
Diana was stomped out and her memory and reverence transferred to the mother of the Lord. The only people who remember Diana are freaky fundamentalists with axes to grind.
When I suggested this to Hector Torres after returning from Turkey, he said, "Of course. Don't you realize how many pictures and idols of the Virgin Mary in Latin America have her connected to the crescent moon, the symbol of the moon goddess?"
Whoever Hector Torres is. This is of the line of thought that any depiction that resembles anythign pagan is by definition pagan. It's an asinine theory. There were pagan gods who died and were resurrected. That must make Jesus a pagan god as well, by that theory.
This was news to me, but as soon as I looked, there it was! In fact, one of the frequent titles given by Catholics to Mary is "Queen of Heaven."
Yes, and what does the title mean? That she is mother of the King. Few Christians will deny this. Again, the similarity of names and images is used as proof of somethign that is simply not there. It's a form of paranoia.
Doris and I were horrified when, in 1996, we visited Rome for the first time and took a guided tour of the Vatican. We had not been inside the building for more than 10 minutes when we were startled to see a life-sized statue of Diana of the Ephesians on public display.
Yeah, right.
SD
Great. I have no problem with this. Ultimately God found a way to keep them preserved.
***** Verses that say to pray to dead people *****
None
******************* Mother of God *************
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
I had to add Gen 3 to build on mat 11:11. Both show that Jesus is not of Mary's seed since here we see that seed does NOT mean physical seed. If it did it would have to mean that for the serpent too.
Mat: 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
In other words He is not of Mary. She is not His mother genetically. He did not come from one of her eggs. Sure he came through her but he is not of her.
Mat 12:46-50 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Mark 3:31-35 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for the.
and he answered them, saying, who is my mother, or my brethren?
And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother and my sister, and mother.
Luke 11:27,28 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare these and the paps which thou has sucked.
but he said, Yea rather , blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Gal 4:22-31:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Notice that there really is a mother of the church and it isn't Mary! Once again Mary is not even mentioned.
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisdec.
Heb 7: 1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Jesus has no mother spiritually and typically. This shows that the whole idea and title of "Mother of God" is anti-scriptural. Being like the Son of God means that you have no mother.
*************** Ever Virgin *************
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Normal reading of this says they had sex after she bore the Lord.
*********** Queen of Heaven *********
Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.
Jer 44:19 The women also said, "And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did we make cakes for her, to worship her, and pour out drink offerings to her without our husbands' permission?"
Jer 44:25 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: "You and your wives have spoken with your mouths and fulfilled with your hands, saying, "We will surely keep our vows that we have made, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her." You will surely keep your vows and perform your vows!'
Mat 22: 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mark 12:22
Luke 20:29
The fact that we are not given in marriage in heaven is repeated 3 times and usually with an exhortation about knowing the scriptures. The only reference to a queen of heaven is of a pagan idol. The rational for Mary being the Bride of the Holy Spirit is removed because we are not given in marriage in Heaven. The idea of her being Queen mother in heaven doesn’t work because if we don’t have wives in heaven, we don’t have kids in heaven. The Idea of Mary being the Mother of God and the wife of the Holy Spirit and the recipient of prayers makes her the 4th part of a man made quadiny.
****** Verses about Mary being assumed into heaven *****
None
******* Verses about Immaculate Conception of Mary *****
None
******* Verses about Mary distributing Grace ******
None
******* Verses that say to pray to dead people ******
None
********* Misrepresented Marian Verses: *********
Revelation 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Gal 4 above shows that Mary is not the “Mother of us all”. These verses are about Israel.
The pain and travail is that of Israel for bearing the burden of the Law and the persecution right down to Rachel's weeping due to her sons being killed in an effort to get Jesus
Baloney. There are millions of Catholic Mary worshippers that worship Mary and haven't joined The Neverending Story to learn how to venerate cover their behinds. :-)
Gulit by association. I suppose if the had held it in Athens we would be accused of worshipping some Athenian god. Any port in a storm.
Logistically would have been much more practical to keep the counsel in Rome. Refute unaccepted.
Nope. Nobody worships Mary. She is not divine.
See my first response to this idiotic statement.
, and? This guy is trafficing in the ignorance of his followers as to what "co-" means in this context. He is deliberately misleading people.
I've read enought of this "co" spin in here to. He's doing fine.
this becomes dogma, all Catholic prayers to Jesus will be expected to go first to Mary.
in, this is not true at all. I have never even heard such nonsense. I suppose the petition or definition where this is stated would be too much to ask for this charlatan to produce as evidence?
I'll give ya this one. He took too much editorial license here.
e John Paul II is a declared worshipper of Mary and he bows before her and prays to her as a mediator.
Pope worships God alone. This is a lie.
Only a divine being could have stopped an assasins' bullet. The pope claimed it was Mary. Sorry, No lie here.
Idols are gods. Mary is not a god and her statues are not idols.
To millions they are.
Mary is a skillful adaptive deception of the Queen of Heaven.
And here I thought she was the mother of Our Lord.
She is. The one in the Bible. Not the made up one.
ce Diana became worthless after the spiritual warfare of Paul and John, the Queen of Heaven needed another disguise.
na was stomped out and her memory and reverence transferred to the mother of the Lord. The only people who remember Diana are freaky fundamentalists with axes to grind.
And here the name calling continues (cuz I called you a chicken first) (wait a minute, you insinuated I was foolish) and I thought I was going to get some kind of coherent refutations.
When I suggested this to Hector Torres after returning from Turkey, he said, "Of course. Don't you realize how many pictures and idols of the Virgin Mary in Latin America have her connected to the crescent moon, the symbol of the moon goddess?"
ever Hector Torres is. This is of the line of thought that any depiction that resembles anythign pagan is by definition pagan. It's an asinine theory. There were pagan gods who died and were resurrected. That must make Jesus a pagan god as well, by that theory.
None of them really did. It was all made up. Kinda like the perpetual virginity thing.
s was news to me, but as soon as I looked, there it was! In fact, one of the frequent titles given by Catholics to Mary is "Queen of Heaven."
Yes, and what does the title mean? That she is mother of the King. Few Christians will deny this. Again, the similarity of names and images is used as proof of somethign that is simply not there. It's a form of paranoia.
I'll let other defend this "Mother of God" stuff. They're doing a good job.
is and I were horrified when, in 1996, we visited Rome for the first time and took a guided tour of the Vatican. We had not been inside the building for more than 10 minutes when we were startled to see a life-sized statue of Diana of the Ephesians on public display.
h, right.
Yeah right what? The statue isn't there?
I take it back now. You're not a chicken.
Why are you baiting me into this discussion? You wouldn't have had anything if it werent for Ezra. You know that admonishment to Timothy "Study to show thyself approved", Paul wasn't talking about the New Testament. So don't take all the credit.
Marcion, oops, I mean Robby would love it if this were true.
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