The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[OLD REGGIE]

I think to paint us Proddies as simply believing in a static text and the individual is hyperbolic. It would seem to be evidence of a poor understanding of Protestantism's view of Scripture and the church and their role in the life of the believer.

Of course, but it would be difficult to argue unless you create a defenseless strawman to beat around the head and shoulders.

This is Dave's standard tactic and it throws some people off track. Fortunately, we all know him well enough that we simply slough it off with a shrug of the shoulders.

[SoothingDave]

No, I stopped subscribing to NR years ago. After the Clinton win in '92, their incessant gloom-and-doomism became too depressing.

I didn't get into politics until 94, so I can't say. I like NR and it's now the only political magazine I subscribe to. It's worth it just for "The Week" (an oddly-named feature in a fortnightly-published magazine). There's always a little outrage and a little chuckle, often together. And sometimes there's a classic one liner, like "I don't know how CBS News told Connie Chung she was no longer co-anchor, but we hope they whispered it into her ear."

Sadly, misanthrope Florence King has just retired.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Of course, but it would be difficult to argue unless you create a defenseless strawman to beat around the head and shoulders. This is Dave's standard tactic and it throws some people off track. Fortunately, we all know him well enough that we simply slough it off with a shrug of the shoulders.

Uh huh. And what's it called when you simply dismiss an argument because of who is making it?

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

A Catholic believes the Church is the authoritative interpreter of Scripture. A Protestant believes that the Holy Spirit will personally interpret Scripture authroritatively for him.

Baloney! First you must define this "Catholic" and "Protestant". Of course you can't, or won't.
==================================================================================

Isn't this a fundamental difference? At the end of the day Protestants have and do just abandon the "the history of Christianity [which] has much for [them] to learn and treasure" and begin their own traditions and history.

Trash. Another "Davespeak". Define this monolithic Protestant.
=====================================================================================

But isn't that what Protestantism celebrates? What on earth is "Sola Scriptura" if not a rallying cry against any churchly authority over the individual and his Book?

Absoloutely not. Another absoloute which is absoloutely incorrect. The sad thing is, you know better but persist with your false definition.

[OLD REGGIE]

And the table is turned. Usually, it's the "Proddie" painting the Catholics with a broad brush. Welcome to our world, bass. ;o)

Is SoothingDave a "Proddie"?

[OLD REGGIE]

Uh huh. And what's it called when you simply dismiss an argument because of who is making it?

If this were the first, or tenth, time I have asked (demanded) a definition from you when you make an absoloute statement concerning Catholic or Protestant beliefs or practices, you would have a point.

[malakhi]

I just stopped at the Barnes & Noble down the street and picked up Podhoretz's book. It looks interesting.

[OLD REGGIE]

Maybe the following goes a long way in explaining why the archdiocese wanted to keep the information secret.

(Please note the article is not from that untrustworthy Boston Globe).

---

BOSTON (Dec. 4) - Thousands of newly released personnel files show the Archdiocese of Boston went to great lengths to hide priests accused of abuse, including clergy who allegedly snorted cocaine and had sex with girls aspiring to be nuns.

One priest allegedly encouraged girls to ''be brides of Christ'' and described himself as ''the second coming of Christ'' to get them to engage in sexual acts, according to the records.

The first round of the documents - roughly 3,000 pages on eight Roman Catholic priests - were made public Tuesday on a Superior Court order. They had previously been obtained by victims' lawyers.

The records included allegations that clergy sexually abused teenage girls and used cocaine and other drugs, and that one led a ''double life'' by carrying on an affair with a female parishioner.

Many of the priests whose files were released are not among the 400 clergy members targeted in the dozens of lawsuits against the archdiocese. But attorneys for plaintiffs hope the documents show the archdiocese had a pattern of transferring priests to other parishes even after accusations of child abuse.

''There has been no other archdiocese where the extent of the problem has been so clearly identified,'' said David Clohessy, national director of Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, or SNAP.

One of the eight priests, Robert M. Burns, had a history of sexual abuse before he came to Boston from the diocese in Youngstown, Ohio, the papers revealed. He was asked to serve in Boston in 1982 as he concluded a year of treatment for child molestation at a church facility.

Then-Cardinal Humberto S. Medeiros and at least two of his top aides - Bishop Alfred C. Hughes and Thomas V. Daily - knew of Burns' history, but still assigned him to a parish where he would have contact with children, the documents said.

The files also indicate that Cardinal Bernard F. Law, after establishing regulations in 1993 to deal with abusive priests, continued to assign accused priests to active duty.

''Some of the information contained in those documents is truly horrible,'' said archdiocese spokeswoman Donna M. Morrissey, who said she could not comment on the specific allegations. ''We're committed to helping any and all survivors.''

In the late 1960s, the Rev. Robert V. Meffan allegedly recruited girls to become nuns and then sexually abused them, according to 1993 letters from Sister Catherine E. Mulkerrin to her boss, the Rev. John B. McCormack, who was a top aide to Law. Meffan allegedly would counsel the girls to perform sexual acts as a way of progressing with their religious studies.

Meffan allegedly engaged in sexual acts with four girls in a Cape Cod rental, one of the girls told Mulkerrin, according to the 1993 memo.

According to the records, Meffan encouraged them to ''be brides of Christ,'' and described himself as ''the second coming of Christ.'' Meffan ''did anything'' but intercourse, one woman told church officials, because he said that was for ''the afterlife.''

On woman said Meffan ''used to suggest to her that she imagine Christ touching, kissing, having intercourse with her,'' according to the church records.

''They were all young girls planning to be nuns,'' said attorney Roderick MacLeish Jr., who represents 247 plaintiffs suing the archdiocese.

Meffan told The Boston Globe the allegations in the documents were true, and that he still believed his sexual relationships with the teenage girls were ''beautiful'' and ''spiritual,'' and were intended to bring them closer to God.

''What I was trying to show them is that Christ is human, and you should love him as a human being,'' said Meffan. ''I felt that by having this little bit of intimacy with them that this is what it would be like with Christ.''

The Rev. Thomas P. Forry allegedly built a house on Cape Cod for a woman with whom he carried on an 11-year affair, the documents showed. The woman had gone to him seeking advice because of problems in her marriage. The woman's son later alleged that Forry made sexual advances on him.

A 1992 memo from Mulkerrin to McCormack, currently the bishop in Manchester, N.H., outlined the history of allegations against Forry. Seven years later, Law reassigned Forry, then a prison chaplain, to a job as a roaming, fill-in priest to cover for priests on vacation. He is currently unassigned.

An unidentified man who answered the door at Forry's home in South Boston dismissed the abuse allegations.

Plaintiffs' attorneys and victims advocates say the documents show that Law continued to transfer problem priests until recently.

''It's not ancient history, it's very, very recent,'' Clohessy said.

The archdiocese earlier this year adopted a much tougher standard.

''We have a policy that no priest with a single credible allegation of abuse of a child will hold any position in the Archdiocese of Boston,'' Morrissey said. ''It's a policy we wish we had for the past 50 years.''

The Rev. Richard A. Buntel, who served in Malden, Mass., from 1978 to 1983, allegedly had sex with boys and used cocaine with them. Mulkerrin, in a memo to McCormack, said an alleged victim told her that Buntel provided him with cocaine when he was 15.

''He would snort it in the priest's room 'every time I went' and, in a way, it seemed like an exchange for sex which also happened every time,'' Mulkerrin wrote.

As of this year, Buntel was employed in a non-ministerial position at St. Thomas of Villanova parish in Wilmington. Phone messages left with the parish were not returned Tuesday night.

AP-NY-12-04-02 0759EST

Copyright 2002 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

[OLD REGGIE]

Also not from the Globe. Files on Boston priests yield sordid sex tales

[malakhi]

One priest allegedly encouraged girls to ''be brides of Christ'' and described himself as ''the second coming of Christ'' to get them to engage in sexual acts, according to the records.

On woman said Meffan ''used to suggest to her that she imagine Christ touching, kissing, having intercourse with her,'' according to the church records.

Hoo boy.

[SoothingDave]

But isn't that what Protestantism celebrates? What on earth is "Sola Scriptura" if not a rallying cry against any churchly authority over the individual and his Book?

Absoloutely not. Another absoloute which is absoloutely incorrect. The sad thing is, you know better but persist with your false definition.

Oh OK, then explain to me exactly what church has authority over a Protestant.

What does Sola Scriptura mean to you?

Baloney! First you must define this "Catholic" and "Protestant". Of course you can't, or won't.

I think we're past this kind of nonsense now. You know exactly what I mean.

Trash. Another "Davespeak". Define this monolithic Protestant.

Duh. Every Christian who rejects the Catholic Church is a Protestant. And the rallying cry of the Reformation was that no Church could come in between a believer and his Bible.

Do we need to go over basic history with you? Are you being dense on purpose.

I suppose I should conclude that Catholics and Protestants are all exactly the same, since when I try to illustrate a difference between the two you feign ignorance and incedulity. What do you want?

SD

[SoothingDave]

I just stopped at the Barnes & Noble down the street and picked up Podhoretz's book. It looks interesting.

You can thank me if you like it, but don't blame me if you don't. ;-)

SD

[SoothingDave]

The media do love a juicy sexy story. I'm not sure if you expect me to defend this or not be repulsed by it or what?

For the record, as I've said a number of times, there are many people responsible for these types of actions having gone unpunished that need to resign and repent.

The existence of sinners in the Church is not now, nor has it ever been, an argument against any particular Church doctrine.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Hoo boy.

From a letter to Meffan from Cardinal Law after his retirement in 1996:

Reverend Robert V. Meffan
P.O.Box 298
White Horse Beach, MA 02381

Dear Father Meffan:

...........

This letter provides me with an opportunity to thank you in my name and in the name of the people of the Archdiocese for the ministry which you have offered in both hospital and parish settings over the years since your ordination in 1953. You have worked over these years to bring God's Word and His Love to His people. We are truly grateful for your priestly care and ministry to all whom you have served during those years.Without doubt over these years of generous care, the lives and hearts of many people have been touched by your sharing of the Lord's Spirit. We are truly grateful.

With grateful remembrance and with my blessing of prayer, I remain,

...................

Sincerely yours in Christ

(Signature Bernard Cardinal Law)

--------------------------------
Archbishop of Boston

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This was printed in the Boston Globe but I couldn't find it on the web site. The transcribing is mine and any errors are mine.

This is just one of the reasons it is so easy to trust the hierarchy.

[SoothingDave]

From a letter to Meffan from Cardinal Law after his retirement in 1996:

Absolute boilerplate. It signifys nothing.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Oh OK, then explain to me exactly what church has authority over a Protestant.

Why, the Church of God of course! Not the Church of Man.
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What does Sola Scriptura mean to you?

I'll settle for this:

"This Mediator [Jesus Christ], having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves."
St. Augustine, quoted from his City of God, book XI, Chapter 3.

Will you?
=================================================================================

(Reg) Trash. Another "Davespeak". Define this monolithic Protestant.

Duh. Every Christian who rejects the Catholic Church is a Protestant. And the rallying cry of the Reformation was that no Church could come in between a believer and his Bible.

Duh. Do you really believe these "Protestants" speak with one voice?
==============================================================================

I suppose I should conclude that Catholics and Protestants are all exactly the same, since when I try to illustrate a difference between the two you feign ignorance and incedulity. What do you want?

What do I want? How about a little intellectual integrity? Is the concept foreign to you?

[OLD REGGIE]

The existence of sinners in the Church is not now, nor has it ever been, an argument against any particular Church doctrine.

Doctrine has nothing to do with it and you know this very well. Let's stick to the story. A corrupt hierarchy has everything to do with it.

It is only necessary for you to convince yourself God wants a corrupt hierarchy in order to strengthen His Church.

[Quester]

Oh OK, then explain to me exactly what church has authority over a Protestant.

Question ... did JESUS speak of this authority ?

[OLD REGGIE]

Absolute boilerplate. It signifys nothing.

To you it means nothing. It signifies institutional lying to me.

[SoothingDave]

Oh OK, then explain to me exactly what church has authority over a Protestant.

Why, the Church of God of course! Not the Church of Man.

What the hell is "the Church of Man?"

Now, be a good fellow, will you, and tell me exactly where one goes in order to discern the mind of this nebulous "Church of God" you express fealty to.

How do you ask it questions? How do you know what to believe? Does this "Church of God" teach free will or predestination? Efficacious baptism or mere symbols? How do you know?

What does Sola Scriptura mean to you?

I'll settle for this:
"This Mediator [Jesus Christ], having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves."
St. Augustine, quoted from his City of God, book XI, Chapter 3.

Will you?

Of course. But I am not so prideful to think there are no things we "cannot know of ourselves." The Scripture is authoritative, when properly understood.

Every Tom, Dick and Harry's personal (and conflicting) pet theory, as much as they think it is "Scripture," can not be the final authority.

(Reg) Trash. Another "Davespeak". Define this monolithic Protestant.

Duh. Every Christian who rejects the Catholic Church is a Protestant. And the rallying cry of the Reformation was that no Church could come in between a believer and his Bible.

Duh. Do you really believe these "Protestants" speak with one voice?

When it comes to rejecting the Catholic Church, they sure do. It is one of the only things all do agree upon.

I don't understand all the fuss. Catholics and Protestants do think differently, and the use of their own (Spirit guided, of course) private interpretation over any interpretation given by a church with authority to speak, is exactly one of the crucial differences.

Don't you recognize that? Don't you like to jab at Catholics by quoting Trent saying that only the magesterium can interpret Scripture? Isn't that because you are free to do so, and Catholics are not?

Why do you get in a huff then, when I say the same thing?

I suppose I should conclude that Catholics and Protestants are all exactly the same, since when I try to illustrate a difference between the two you feign ignorance and incedulity. What do you want?

What do I want? How about a little intellectual integrity? Is the concept foreign to you?

Intellec..what?

I would lke to know why you are objecting to my characterization. What is untrue about it? Don't attack me, tell me what I am saying that you disagree with.

Even better, you Protestants out there who are objecting, tell me what you think the basic difference is.

SD