Posted on 01/03/2002 11:19:13 AM PST by ArGee
A very rich man decided that he wanted to show kindness to the people of the fair city where he lived. Since he was very rich indeed, he decided to throw a banquet for the entire city. He rented the largest sports arena in the city and began his plans. He planned for huge amounts of the best food possible, making allowances for every religious and medical diet. He advertised the banquet in every possible manner - television, radio, billboard, door-to-door canvassing. Considering that there might be some who could not travel, he arranged for free bus transportation to and from the event, and some special-needs vehicles for all who could not ride busses. He even scheduled the banquet to run for 24 hours a day for several days so that everyone could be sure of being served.
He planned long and hard and finally the big day came. The rich man ate quickly and then went about wishing all his guests well and personally making sure that all had every need met. After a while he went outside to tour the grounds and talk with those who had not yet gone in, and those who had already left. Everyone was happy. Many were profusely thankful. It was a glorious occasion.
At one point the rich man noticed a group of people sitting outside a locked door with most unpleasant looks on their faces. Sensing they were not happy, he went over to them. He did not introduce himself but simply asked them if he could be of service.
"We want to go in through this door," one of them replied.
The rich man explained to them that the hall was arranged to feed a large number of people as quickly and effortlessly as possible. This required order inside, and the entrances and exits had been carefully planned to be as efficient as possible. He then offered to go call one of the golf carts that were avaialbe to help people who could not walk far to take them to the entrance. But the man replied, "We do not want to go in the entrance. We want to go in this door. We don't understand why we can't go in any door we wish. We think the man who set this banquet up is mean and hateful for insisting we go in through the entrance. He has tried to bill himself as a very kind man by offering this banquet, but he is not kind at all if he will not indulge us and let us go through this door.
The rich man was distressed at these words, but still attempted to please these people. He tried once more to explain to them what was behind this particular door, and how if they went in this door they would disrupt the meal service being offered inside. He offered to drive them himself, not only to the door, but inside the hall to their tables if they would only go through the entrance to enjoy the meal. Again the man said, "No, but only a hateful man would keep us from going through the door of our choosing. And we will sit here and tell anyone who will listen to us what an awful man he is until he lets us in."
At that the rich man was enraged and he shouted, "Enough." Then he called a police officer to have them thrown off of the property and ordered that they not be allowed to return until the banquet was over and all the scraps had been hauled away. Then, mourning for their loss, he turned to visit with other guests.
This is not a dodge. As one who's faithful and truthful, we must expect God to be consistent and not arbitrary -- IOW, unchanging. No, he does not play tricks on men. to "play tricks" is to assume that men enjoy sovereignty in their own right, without respect to God, and that man has some sort of right to be unmolested by God. I know this is probably the vierw you favor. But once again -- if that's what God is -- one who holds less than absolute sovereignty -- who needs him? OTOH, if God is an absolute sovereign, with ALL the rights, who nevertheless wishes man over time to acquire an intimate knowledge and relationship with him, who are we to question the means by which he chooses to make himself known?
Please consider that your model of a legalistic, moralizing god may be primitive and inadequate. All the easier to shoot down, no doubt, if that is your purpose, but unworthy of you.
Once having been exposed to The Word, if any should repeatedly prove that their only purpose in joining such discussions is to pillory, insult, defame, and spit upon the Holy Word of God, then continuing to so enjoin them is an affrontery before God.
It is here where a Christian crosses the line between "witnessing" and "casting pearls before swine."
Sadly, continuing to hold up God's Word for "give me some proof" heretics like OWK to take potshots at is the latter, and ill-advised. I have watched many here on FR try to soften OWK's heart to this life-saving message, and the replies are always the same.
I pray for OWK, and all afflicted with the same malaise.
It's a Jewish thing. It was considered blasphemy to write God's name and then destroy it, so they would abreviate it in this manner. That way if their writings were destroyed they hadn't offended him. Many Jews still continue with this practice.
You want an intelligent answer concerning one place or the other. There is Genesis that tells us that God created the Heavens and the earth. But, I do realize you likely do not hold much respect for the Bible.
Consider, two facts that you must face. That our universe/matter/energy is eternal or that there is a higher being that is eternal and created what we see and don't see. I believe it takes more faith to believe that matter is eternal.
LuvItOrLeaveIt, there is no possible way you will understand with your intellect the Christian faith. Just for a moment choose to believe there is a God. This most high being has all the intellect---it passes all understanding. He doesn't give a flip about our intellect with all that He has. No, he does not want our minds or our intellectually understanding, He wants our hearts. He wants your heart. Surely you've noticed the differences in your very life between matters of the heart and matters of the intellect. If it took intellect, LIOLI (you sure have a long name), where would that leave the mentally handicapped? It is the heart that God wants of us. If you could for just a moment ponder the very idea of God and then see your position to God and be willing to open your heart up long enough for Him to show himself to you-----oh, the wonder you would behold. But, there are no words I can use nor anyone else. It has to do with your willingness or your rebellion.
I've said too much. I'm sorry. I'm sad for you that you think you know when really you do not. I do not say that in a prideful way. I rebelled myself. I thought I knew. Then, one night, the Lord just came and showed Himself to me and gave me faith to believe that He was who He said He was. May the Lord visit your heart and reveal Himself to you in a mighty way. ~Boxsford
THAT is precisely the sticking point most Atheists and Agnostics choke on. They don't want to allow for the fact that there is a Sovereign God who has not only the ability, but the RIGHT to hold man accountable for his actions, because in so acknowledging, they de-throne themselves from absolute mastery of their own destiny. They cannot accept that in God's eyes, they are flawed, imperfect, and unsuited to be in God's presence, or to even approach Him in their own natural state.
It does no good to quote scripture to one who doesn't believe scripture. That which, for the Christian, answers the question, does not do so for the unbeliever, for he does not accept the validity of the scripture. Without a common frame of reference, neither side can agree, because they have no common ground on which to build. Unbelievers, Atheists, and Agnostics rely on their own observations, their own conceptions, and their own abiltites to discern, decide, and draw conclusions about God. They invariably mold and fashion a God of their own conception, one who behaves (or doesn't behave) according to what they think He should do or not do. They accept no authority outside of themselves, or those who they have deemed knowledgeable in accordance with their own definiton and conception of knowledge. Their belief system (or lack of one) is turned inward on itself as a closed loop, with no outside interaction accepted or wanted. They convice themselves that they are right, because they feel that they are, judging by the self-consistency of their system. The flaw in it is that it is based upon a god who does not exist as they have conceived him. if God did exist as they have conceived Him, then they would be right. The flaw is in the perception of God, who He is, and His Sovereignty. As I said before, God is not what we conceive Him to be, He is what He reveals Himself to be, and the one true religion would be the one who starts with that as it's First Premise, and aligns itself with what God reveals Himself to be, no matter how it may differ from what they think He ought to be, or wish He was.
Oh, I know You, my Lord. I know Your ways.
You plot, You plan, You deal like some conniving trader of Ur,
You are like old Terah, You are.
You do not lead me out of Haran, a sojourner in new lands,
You do not change names as easy as a man changes his robe,
You do not destroy cities and spare my kin,
You do not keep Sarah barren and Hagar fertile
Until my wife is four score and 11 and I near five score
Without plan and purpose.
And after all those years of unnatural life bringing forth fruit,
You demand that I toss that fruit aside without even it bringing forth seed?
I don't think so.
I'm a rational man, my Lord,
As rational as ever a man who followed a voice can be.
I've dealt with kings and made my bargains,
Consorted with pharaohs and held my own,
I've even argued with You and brought down Your demands.
I know how men think and how they plan and how they scheme.
Gardens are not planted to be barren,
Nor are cities built to be bankrupt,
Nor are kingdoms forged to surrender.
I am in Your image, I know the broad machinery of Your mind,
I know Your long-laid schemes are not for barrenness, bankruptcy, or surrender.
You are too great a Lord, to promise nations and renege.
Do not, my Lord, think me as calculating as You.
You have my worship, my honor, my gratitude, my love,
Even my obedience, for I know You see far more paths
Than a thousand thousand traders could journey,
More choices that a thousand thousand wives face in the market,
And have marked every one to happen or not to happen or yet to be decided.
Here I am, at Your call, my Lord.
You have my trust that You see the hidden ways
Far clearer than I see the road at my feet.
I may be the grandest schemer to come of new Haran,
But I bow before my Master with all respect and awe.
You are as rational as I, my Lord,
And gifted with far more knowledge.
But as I know the ins and outs of God's images, I know You.
You are not a God to fruitlessly waste Your power.
I followed You to know what wonders You had for me,
Knowing that my son was safe.
And if You had not sent Your angel to stay my hand?
I would have stopped my knife a hairsbreadth from My Son's neck,
Tossed my blade aside,
And told you to find some other man to crawl before you.
Copyright 1998,2002 by Charles Lipsig
Although none here can offer you concrete evidence, if you should decide to pursue the issue...I can give you a hint that always amazes even MY skeptical mind.
There are several books available that tell about very young children's frightening or near-death experiences. The stories are amazing...seeing angels, "nice ladies", relatives they've never known...and many make these claims to people other than their parents initially (so no "outside influence").
Just a thought for you...they, after all, haven't had a chance to be skeptical...yet!:>)
Actually, you are wrong. In fact, future changes to the forum will allow for an area where these sorts of things can be discussed, so those interested only in politics can stay in the political forum.
The key word here is 'hot'. Threads that degenerate into denominational squabbles tend to get yanked. There is room for civil discussion of religious differences, particularly if it relates in some way to culture and political philosophy.
As far as the "parable" goes, I don't understand people who would sit outside the locked door, but I consider myself and other atheists to be more the type that sees the fliers and goes to the stadium only to be told that the banquet will be held "soon." No one knows when. When we ask, we find that the fliers have been posted for 2000 years... so we go find our own food. Personally, I see Christians as folks who've been hanging around looking for free food for a very, very long time. It's their choice, but I don't understand it. Are they THAT desparate for free food?? If so, why? Can't they get their own?
So my variant on the parable is, the meal will come, eventually. But for now, I'm willing to cook and/or buy my own meals. In the meantime, there's a really good Cookbook that it's recommended I take recipes from....
And I'm stretching the metaphor.
This is more realistic than the original. As an atheist, I don't sit around complaining that God is mean. God is even nicer than Santa Claus, but in my opinion, equally nonexistent. If heaven existed, I wouldn't complain about the door being inconvenient. But I see no evidence for the existence of heaven or the banquet. By the way, you just made up the story of the banquet, to help you understand the world better; just like people probably made up heaven.
L, TOWM's revision is more coherent, but you have to add that, just for curiousity, the disbelievers went to the banquet site, but didn't see any banquet. Yet others who believed in the banquet kept disappearing thinking that they were going to the banquet. But they never returned and no one really knew (except by faith) that the banquet ever happened.
I have heard pastors express the view that getting them to make the profession is the important thing..God can finish it later..
Excellent point.
Based on my posts (on this thread anyhow) I'll take that as kinda an odd compliment. (I'd draw a smiley thing here, but I hate those things.)
Sorry, that doesn't sound much like peace of mind to me. Such fervent linquistic triumphalism (as in your rhetoric) seems to me more indicative of mental or emotional tumult, or suppressed doubt.
Non Christians also get angry about their final fate, hell.
No, those of us who are theists, or even agnostics, are angry, if at all, about the portrayal of God as a cosmic Hitler. The doctrine of hell is not worrisome or threatening to us, but it is an odious lie, and a sufficient reason (though far from the only one) to conclude that Christianity is a false religion.
Yet, it is a decision they can easily change.
Of course, otherwise one couldn't blame the victim. The Nazis had the same philosophy: the Jews were in the work camps and the death camps because they wanted to be there.
I find most non Christians to be self absorbed and very illogical.
Now that I believe.
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