Posted on 05/25/2024 9:48:21 AM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal
So you don’t believe that clear passage from 1 John. I see you have decided that some parts of the Bible can be disposed of if they don’t fit your pre-conceived ideas. Duly noted. No point in pursuing this discussion if you simply ignore the very source of truth that you claim to rely on so faithfully.
No, I’m saying the RC understanding is incorrect on this and many other issues.
And on what authority do you claim that?
A reading of the Bible and evaluating RC theology against it. Also based on numerous conversations on these forums.
If your understanding of 1 John is correct it contradicts Romans 6:23. The Bible won’t contradict itself as God doesn’t contradict Himself.
Basic Christianity 101, first question.
And this guy gets it wrong .
He should learn how to code .
I can just as easily say that if your understanding of Romans 6:23 is correct then it contradicts 1 John.
What you’ve just done is demonstrated is that the Holy Grail of Protestantism, Sola Scriptura, can’t stand. It requires either the refusal to interpret it at all, in which case apparently contradictory verses like this leave the reader in a state of utter confusion, or an authority whose interpretation can be relied upon.
I’ve come to the firm conclusion that that authority is the Roman Catholic Church. You’ve come to a different conclusion.
But this is going nowhere. I’ve repeatedly explained Catholic beliefs and supported them with Scripture. And rather than engage the points I’ve made you simply say I’m wrong. The most you do to engage the points I make is to quote another verse without any discussion. This last exchange is a perfect example. I support my point with a quote and you shoot back another quote that appears on the surface to contradict it, without any discussion to explain from your point of view why your quote either trumps mine or why they don’t really contradict each other.
I conclude that you got nothin’ more than a few Bible bullets you like to shoot at your favorite Catholic targets. You seem to think that making a glancing blow against a stationary target in a climate controlled shooting range is equivalent to taking down a bear in the wilderness of Alaska. You refuse to engage in any substantive and deep discussion of what you claim to be true. And when I make a good point that challenges you, you simply ignore it and move to a different target.
So I wish you well and choose to disengage from this conversation.
You could but you'd be incorrect again.
A fundamental principle of Scripture interpretation is God will not contradict Himself.
Agree?
As for your reliance upon the Vatican for interpretation I'd really question that in light of what we're seeing from the current pope....and some teachings from other popes in history.
And IIRC, Rome has not dogmatically defined the exact meaning of the passage in question. So where does that leave you and any other Roman Catholic?
Be it a priest or a lay RC you have no dogmatic interpretation of the passage in question.
I'll give a more detailed answer later this evening.
This is from another thread but it illustrates an issue for the Roman Catholic.
Which one is correct?
Lumen Gentium # 16:
"But the plan of salvation also embraces those who acknowledge the Creator, and among these the MUSLIMS are first; the profess to hold the faith of Abraham AND ALONG WITH US THEY WORSHIP THE ONE MERCIFUL GOD WHO WILL JUDGE MANKIND ON THE LAST DAY."
Lumen Gentium had this claim of authority:
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
And the conclusion:
Each and all these items which are set forth in this dogmatic Constitution have met with the approval of the Council Fathers. And We by the apostolic power given Us by Christ together with the Venerable Fathers in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and establish it and command that what has thus been decided in the Council be promulgated for the glory of God.
Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 6), May 27, 1832:
"Therefore, they must instruct them in the true worship of God, which is unique to the Catholic religion."[44]
I will say the poster who posted this has taken this out of context in this Papal message on mixed marriages with unbelievers.
Pope St. Gregory the Great:
"The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her ..."[45]
Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome, Can. 15:
"If anyone does not say that HE (JESUS CHRIST) ...WILL COME TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD, HE IS A HERETIC."[46]
All that said the poster was appealing to various documents issued by the Pope to support their position that Lumen Gentium was wrong.
So who gets to decide which pope was correct and what is the criteria?
The role and position of the Bishop of Rome is eminently in the Biblical BookS
the role of St. Peter and his successors is made remarkably clear in Matthew 16:18-19 and its immediate context:
And I tell you, you are Peter (Gr.—petros—‘rock’), and on this rock (Gr.—petra—‘rock’) I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Jesus here promises infallible authority to Peter that would empower him to speak in the place of Christ, or as his vicar on earth. Catholics believe just what the text says. When St. Peter (and his successors) “binds” something on earth, it is “bound” in heaven.
Here’s more
Matt. 14:23-27: St. Peter is uniquely empowered by Jesus to walk on water, and when his faith begins to falter, our Lord does not allow him to go under. This is a prelude to Jesus promising to give his authority that can never fail to Peter in Matt. 16. The gift of the papacy is here assured not to depend upon the person of St. Peter or of his successors, but on the promise and power of Christ.
Matt. 17:24-27 —> Rocky (Peter/Petros/Piotr) is told to do something on behalf of the Lord.
Luke 5:1-10: - Then Jesus said to Simon, “Don’t be afraid; from now on you will fish for people.”
Luke 22:24-32 “31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.””
Acts 1:15-26 As a matter of historical record, St. Peter takes the helm of the Church and gives an infallible interpretation of Psalm 69:26 and 109:8 in choosing a successor for Judas.
Acts 10:1-48:In this chapter from the Acts of the Apostles, Jesus personally sees to the fulfillment of the prophecy of John 10:16. He appears to St. Peter and commands him to bring the gospel to the gentiles by way of Cornelius, the centurion. When Peter then “commanded [Cornelius and his household] to be baptized” in Acts 10:48, the prophecy of John 10:16 was fulfilled.
Matt. 10:2: In the context of the calling and listing of the twelve apostles, Peter is referred to as “the first” apostle. We know this does not mean “first” chronologically because Peter was not the first called by Christ in time—Andrew was (see John 1:40-41). The Greek word, protos—“first”—often denotes a sense of preeminence, or even a primacy in authority, not necessarily simply being “first” in time. It can be translated as “chief.” For example, St. Paul says of himself:
The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. And I am the foremost (Gr.—protos) of sinners.
And note that if you read the epistles of Paul and the book of Acts, you will find numerous instances of bishops, priests and deacons.
Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They sometimes appear to be called “evangelists” in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).
Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as “presbyters” or “elders.” In fact, the English term “priest” is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).
Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6).
I hope you’re doing cut-and-paste with these lengthy posts, ‘cause I don’t read them. Hate that you could be wasting your time.
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