Posted on 05/23/2024 8:56:34 AM PDT by Tell It Right
FO
Already here...
Note: The proprietor of that website is an aggressive homosexual ideologue. I've run into him before. Just a warning. Take what you see there with several grains of salt. He has an agenda, to put it mildly.
Bipolar Bob has always been a bigot.
Do you hearken back to the good old days of the Inquisition? Maybe just evicting me wouldn’t be quite enough to satisfy the zealots.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.aspNote: The proprietor of that website is an aggressive homosexual ideologue. I've run into him before. Just a warning. Take what you see there with several grains of salt. He has an agenda, to put it mildly.
Thanks for the warning: in this case the document cited is a historical one, one which varies in translation. The top Google result for Twelfth Ecumenical Council: Lateran IV 1215 is https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum12-2.htm#3 and which seems to me to use less forceful terms, such as,
"in so far as they can, to expel...," and "Catholics who take the cross and gird themselves up for the expulsion of heretics shall enjoy the same indulgence, and be strengthened by the same holy privilege, as is granted to those who go to the aid of the holy Land,"vs.
"to the best of their ability to exterminate..." and "Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land,"as in https://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0431/_P3.HTM, which corresponds to what is said to be the Original Electronic Text at the Internet Medieval Sourcebook web site = http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.html
What the original (if it exists) Latin best corresponds to I know not.
The Inquisition in Spain was targeted against people who claimed to be Catholic but were secrete Muslims and seen as a third column against the Crown, who had just won the 700 year old Reconquista.
There was the Calvinist Inquisition by Jean Calvain in Geneva, and the Puritans were conducting their own inquisitions in England and Scotland under Cromwell and in some of the North American colonies.
Yes, torturing and killing people of another faith is just what The One True Apostolic Church would do. Just doing Gods work, no doubt.
The Calvinists, Anglicans, Lutherans, Puritans did that too.
And all were wrong to do that.
The One True Apostolic Church on earth contains within itself all sorts of sinners and knaves, and some of them obtain positions of responsibility.
Those who led the Inquisitions could think their actions were justified. The Bible itself records instances where God commanded that formal, legal inquiries—that is, inquisitions—be carried out to expose secret believers in false religions. In Deuteronomy 17:2–5, God said: “If there is found among you, within any of your towns which the Lord your God gives you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it; then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done in Israel, then you shall bring forth to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.”
It is clear that there were some Israelites who posed as believers in and keepers of the covenant with Yahweh, while inwardly they did not believe and secretly practiced false religions, and even tried to spread them (cf. Deut. 13:6–11). To protect the kingdom from such hidden heresy, these secret practitioners of false religions had to be rooted out and expelled from the community. This directive from the Lord applied even to whole cities that turned away from the true religion (Deut. 13:12–18). Like Israel, medieval Europe was a society of Christian kingdoms that were formally consecrated to the Lord Jesus Christ. It is therefore quite understandable that these Catholics would read their Bibles and conclude that for the good of their Christian society they, like the Israelites before them, “must purge the evil from the midst of you” (Deut. 13:5, 17:7, 12). Paul repeats this principle in 1 Corinthians 5:13.
These same texts were interpreted similarly by the first Protestants, who also tried to root out and punish those they regarded as heretics. Luther and Calvin both endorsed the right of the state to protect society by purging false religion. In fact, Calvin not only banished from Geneva those who did not share his views, he permitted and in some cases ordered others to be executed for “heresy” (e.g., Jacques Gouet, tortured and beheaded in 1547; and Michael Servetus, burned at the stake in 1553). In England and Ireland, Reformers engaged in their own ruthless inquisitions and executions. Thousands of English and Irish Catholics were put to death—many by being hanged, drawn, and quartered—for practicing the Catholic faith and refusing to become Protestant. An even greater number were forced to flee to the Continent. We point this out to show that both sides understood the Bible to require the use of penal sanctions to root out false religion from Christian society.
"Extermino" comes from "ex" (out of, out from) and "terminus" (border, boundary, demarcation). It means "to drive out" or "expel". The same document that talks about "exterminating" heretics also discusses receiving "exterminated" but repentant heretics back into the fold. To translate "extermino/-are" into English as "exterminate" without explanation is translational malfeasance.
Halsall knows this, or, as a historian and scholar, ought to know this. He just doesn't care and is happy to make the Church look bad. That a supposedly "Jesuit" school like Fordham tolerates him tells you what you need to know about them.
“This is a story that sounds like it’s coming from the 1600s and not 2024.”
Really. In 1611, my ancestor was burned at the stake by the state religion in England for “heresy”. His heresy was that he refused to have his infant and young children baptized. He believed it was up to the children, when they were old enough to understand, to make their own decisions.
An infant baptism isn’t a “Catholic festival”, but the underlying issue is disturbing.
Even as recently as the 1990's, the reformed "dominionist" Calvinist crowd (Gary North and friends) said that "idolatry" ought to be a capital crime. Asked whether Catholics would qualify as idolaters subject to the death penalty, their response was "Maybe, we're not sure".
Always makes me think of the classic Emo Phillips joke:
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”
He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”
He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”
Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.”
I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over.
And the Anglicans who executed your ancestors were perfectly happy to execute Catholics too. Of course Catholics were “traitors” subject to hanging, drawing, and quartering (or simple beheading, if of noble birth), not burning as heretics ... but the final result was the same.
That’s the kind of comment I’d expect from the backwoods of Arkansas lol Having your married cousins over for the holiday?
“And the Anglicans who executed your ancestors were perfectly happy to execute Catholics too.”
Of course.
Don’t let Biden hear about this.
I would point out that it is basic tribalism. Us vs them. And nit limited to religion. Also nationalism, race, ethnicity, political views and even sports team support.
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