WHY I BECAME A PRETERIST

Prophecy Questions Blog ^ | April 10, 2024 | Charles Meek

[Kalamata]

>>We’ve not had the 1000 year reign. There’s been no mark of the beast system implemented.<<

Jesus reigns from heaven. But I don’t want to waste any more of your time.

Mr. Kalamata

[grumpa]

This Generation

To what time-period does the phrase “this generation” in the New Testament refer? It is used in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32) in reference to the fulfillment of end times prophecies. A straight-forward reading of the text indicates that these prophecies would be fulfilled while some hearing Jesus’ words in the first century were still alive.

To confirm that it refers to the first century contemporaries of Jesus we need only to look at the other times the phrase is used in the New Testament. Without doubt, it ALWAYS refers to those living in the first century. No other conclusion is possible without doing violence to the text. Here are all the times the phrase is used outside of the Olivet Discourse. Look up these passages for yourself:

Matthew 11:16-24; 12:38-45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:35-36; Mark 8:12; 8:38-9:1; 9:19, and Luke 7:31; 9:41; 11:29-32, 49-51; 17:25; Acts 2:40.

The certain conclusion is that the “end times” is not about the end of the physical universe, not about the end of the Christian age, and not about anything in our future. It is about the end of the Old Covenant age, which ended with the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple in AD 70 in the generation of Jesus’ contemporaries.

For more on this, see my article entitled “When Was the Olivet Discourse Fulfilled?” here: https://prophecyquestions.com/when-was-the-olivet-discourse-fulfilled

See also, “What Is a Biblical Generation?” here:

https://prophecyquestions.com/what-is-a-biblical-generation

[Kalamata]

>>Wouldn’t it be a kind of anemic, impotent Jesus who could come back and not make a difference? You’d think people would have noticed.<<

You can ask him that question when you meet him.

Did Jesus make a difference? Absolutely! From his doctrine arose the greatest civilization in the history of the world — Western Civilization — which Satan is currently trying to destroy. He will fail.

Mr. Kalamata

[metmom]

As another poster wrote, Josephus and other witnesses saw chariots in the sky over Jerusalem in AD 66.

Chariots are not clouds and a few men are not *every eye*.

This satisfies the visibility requirement.

Nope, it's just hearsay.

[metmom]

Jesus reigns from heaven.

Doing what exactly?

How is our current world situation an example of Jesus reigning anywhere?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.” — Mat 10:22-23 KJV

"Instructions for Future Disciples

"The “atmosphere” of this section is different from that in the previous section. Here the Lord spoke of persecution, but we have no record that the Twelve suffered during their tour. Jesus also spoke of a ministry to the Gentiles (Matt. 10:18). The Holy Spirit had not been given, yet Jesus talked about the Spirit speaking in them (Matt. 10:20). Matthew 10:22 seems to indicate a worldwide persecution; yet the Apostles were ministering only in their own land. Finally, Matthew 10:23 speaks about the return of the Lord, which certainly moves these events into the future. It is difficult to escape the conclusion that these instructions apply to witnesses at some future time."

Wiersbe, W. W. (1996). The Bible exposition commentary (Vol. 1, pp. 37–38). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

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Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” — Mat 16:27-28 KJV

This occurred 6 days (and in the following chapter) later, when Peter, James and John joined Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration.

---

“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” — Mat 24:31-34 KJV

And the generation that witnesses those things will not pass away until these things are fulfilled. No one has witnessed those things yet.

best.

[ealgeone]

The Parousia was a divine coming in judgment against old covenant Israel to Jerusalem in AD 70. As another poster wrote, Josephus and other witnesses saw chariots in the sky over Jerusalem in AD 66. This satisfies the visibility requirement.

No...the other poster said:

Kalamata:There was an eyewitnessed event in 66 AD recorded by Josephus and Tacitus that could be Jesus and his angels coming in clouds.

You can't even get these basic facts straight.

And you have the audacity to call others charlatans.

[Kalamata]

>>So when, exactly, did Jesus come back in the clouds and everyone saw Him and nobody recorded it?<<

See

https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/4230383/posts?page=65#65

>>Revelation was thought to be penned about 81–96 AD. How does that fit with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD?<<

It is more likely The Revelation was written about 62 AD when there were exactly 7 churches in Asia.

Mr. Kalamata

[ealgeone]

Kosmos can also mean local as well.

[ealgeone]

Bro....you can keep dropping that link, but none of us are clicking on it.

You have something to say...say it.

Playground rules.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

"Some of the early church fathers (Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius, Irenaeus, and Victorinus) wrote that the Apostle John experienced exile on the island of Patmos during the Roman Emperor Domitian’s reign (1:9).3 They wrote that the government allowed John to return to Ephesus after Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. Consequently many conservative interpreters date the writing of this book near A.D. 95 or 96.4 There is good evidence that this was the last of John’s inspired writings.

"5 Kenneth Gentry argued that John wrote Revelation in the late 60s.6 Several writers have refuted this view.7"

TC (2003). TCENB

[Kalamata]

>>>>Jesus reigns from heaven.<<<<

>>Doing what exactly?<<

I am only speculating, but I suppose he is being patient with mankind until the time of the next fulfillment.

>>How is our current world situation an example of Jesus reigning anywhere?<<

The current situation in the world fits this scripture:

“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth” — Rev 20:7-8 KJV

Mr. Kalamata

[ealgeone]

He’s suggesting a “second, Second Coming”....of all things.

[vladimir998]

“And I thought Roman Catholics were way off base.....but, bro....you’ve exceeded them in your error in handling the Word.”

Dude, leave us Catholics out of this Protestant internecine “We all believe in sola scriptura but can’t solve or prove anything with sola scriptura” nonsense. ;)

I hope you are well, eagleone!

[Cincinnatus.45-70]

What I know is that the Bible is inerrant. If I don’t understand something, the failure is in my understanding and I need to work harder.

[ealgeone]

Vald ol' buddy.....good to see you again!

I'll cut ya'll some slack on this one.

Hope all is well with you!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

More...

"The Apostle John took over the pastoral work in Ephesus about A.D. 70, including the churches in the surrounding area, the “seven churches of Asia Minor” of Rev. 2–3.

"The Roman Emperor Nero had persecuted Christians in Rome, but the “fiery trial” that Peter had promised (1 Peter 4:12) had not yet begun.

"But when Domitian became emperor (A.D. 81–96), the persecution was intensified. Domitian was as cold-blooded a murderer as you will ever meet in the pages of history. He promoted “emperor worship” and began his announcements, “Our Lord and God Domitian commands …” Everyone who spoke to him had to address him, “Lord and God.”

"He was bitter in his treatment of both Jews and Christians, and it was at his behest that John was exiled to the Isle of Patmos, a rocky island ten miles long and six miles wide, in the Aegean Sea. Rome had a penal camp there where the prisoners labored in the mines. It was here in this isolated spot that John received the visions that make up Revelation. He wrote it about A.D. 95. Wiersbe, W. W. (1992). Wiersbe’s expository outlines on the New Testament (p. 790). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

[Peter ODonnell]

Even if we allow that there could have been literal fulfilments of some prophecies around 70 AD, what kind of second coming and Kingdom is it then to have this current awful state of affairs in the world, no sign of God’s rule in power, and the same can be said of just about the entire time since 70 AD?

Other than the fact that the Jews were driven out of Jerusalem in 70 AD, what changed in the world to demonstrate that a righteous God had instituted a Kingdom and sent Jesus Christ to reign over it? Nothing. It was 326 AD before a Roman emperor (Constantine) even accepted Christianity as a valid faith.

So the preterist view asks us to accept that an entirely absent King and Kingdom is “proof” of their theory, which actually rests on only one event and that not a particularly good outcome for believers in God.

It is self-evidently a wrong theory.

[Kalamata]

>>”The “atmosphere” of this section is different from that in the previous section. Here the Lord spoke of persecution, but we have no record that the Twelve suffered during their tour.”<<

The scripture states:

“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” — 2 Tim 3:12 KJV

I am certain the disciples and Paul were living godly. There are many instances of persecution of the disciples and Paul during the generation of Christ, for example:

“But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.” — Mat 10:23 KJV

“For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.” — Mat 24:7-9 KJV

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled . . . But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.” — Mar 13:3-4,9 KJV

“But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.” — Luk 21:12 KJV

“They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.” — John 16:2 KJV

“Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;” — 2Cor 11:24-25 KJV

There are many other examples of the persecution 1st-Century Christians.

>>Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” — Mat 16:27-28 KJV

>>This occurred 6 days (and in the following chapter) later, when Peter, James and John joined Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration.<<

The passage in context reads:

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” — Mat 16:27-28 KJV

The transfiguration was an entirely different event. The kingdom is not of this world, i.e., it is heavenly:

“And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” — 2Tim 4:18 KJV

>>And the generation that witnesses those things will not pass away until these things are fulfilled. No one has witnessed those things yet.<<

The temple was destroyed, the disciples were persecuted, there was a great falling away, Jerusalem was surrounded by armies, and so forth, in the generation of Christ. By default, the other events occurred in that generation as well

Mr. Kalamata

[aMorePerfectUnion]

And when did this happen?

“ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. ”