Posted on 04/10/2024 5:22:37 PM PDT by grumpa
With a measure of teeth gnashing, and years of study—I became convinced that the preterist view of eschatology is the correct one. Here are some reasons why.
1. I could no longer ignore, in good conscience, the over 100 time-statements in the New Testament that limit fulfillment of the prophesied events to the lifetimes of the New Testament writers. (There really are over 100 of them.) Preterism 101
2. I looked up every mention in the New Testament of the “last days,” “end,” or “end times” and found that all 19 such mentions are consistent. Without exception, the writers of the New Testament wrote that THEY were living in the last days. So, unless they were false teachers, the last days had to be the end of the old covenant world―not the end of the physical universe. While the new covenant began at the cross, the old covenant ended in finality in AD 70 when the temple was destroyed (Hebrews 8:13).
3. I realized that I was ignorant about what happened in Jerusalem in AD 70―and the theological significance of these events, especially surrounding the destruction of the temple and the sacrificial and priestly systems.
4. I heard some Christians, including pastors, say that “The disciples expected Jesus to return in their lifetimes, but they were simply wrong.” Knowing that the disciples got their views from Jesus himself, and believing in the inerrancy of the Bible, I cannot accept that they were wrong. But it was either they were wrong, or else Christians have misunderstood what the writers meant by Jesus’ Parousia. At least some of the passages about the timing of the Second Coming must have been about Jesus “coming in judgment” against apostate old covenant Israel in AD 70, much like YHWH “came in judgment” against nations in the Old Testament―as preterists teach. That answers the skeptics who said Jesus was a false teacher.
5. I realized that if Jesus and his disciples were wrong about the timing of fulfillment of the prophetic events, the charges against Christianity concerning Jesus being a false teacher would be true. The preterist view is the only one that answers the critics’ charges. Jesus kept his word. He was not a false prophet. There is no need to make excuses for Him or gloss over passages that don’t fit your presuppositions from the echo-chamber.
6. I was interested to discover that Jesus, as well as his disciples, stated that virtually all OLD TESTAMENT prophecy would be completed in their literal generation—that is, the first century (Luke 21:22; Acts 3:24).
7. It became excruciatingly clear that many high-profile preachers, especially dispensationalists, have made glaringly false predictions about the rapture, Second Coming, and the end of the world. These charlatans (yes, that’s a strong but deserved charge) include Hal Lindsey, Edgar Whisenant, Benny Hinn, Grant Jeffrey, Jerry Falwell, John Walvoord, Harold Camping, Perry Stone, etc., etc. These men added to false predictions by Christians for 2000 years, making a continuous mockery of Christianity. Something has been very wrong about prophecy. False Prophets
8. I noticed that Christians tend to interpret the Bible through the lens of the daily news events (“newspaper eschatology”)—and have accordingly been making false and embarrassing predictions about the end of the world for 2,000 years. The preterist view restores credibility to Christianity. If they would be reading through the lens of the original audience instead, they would get a different picture.
9. I have heard Christians argue that language such as “moon turning to blood,” “coming on clouds,” “make the heavens tremble,” etc. should be understood literally. I was always skeptical about literalizing these phrases, and my closer investigation revealed that my skepticism was warranted. Such phrases are typical non-literal Hebraic apocalyptic language to describe God’s intervention (usually judgment) on nations in history. Apocalyptic Language
10. I learned that over 130 competent scholars have been identified as teaching that Revelation was written prior to AD 70, and that Revelation is mostly about the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple during the Jewish-Roman War of AD 66-70. Recommended book: Before Jerusalem Fell by Kenneth Gentry.
11. I discovered that there are over 30 passages in Revelation that (a) demand fulfillment soon after being penned, and (b) Revelation does not introduce new concepts, but rather connects the events described there with the same ones mentioned elsewhere in the Bible. Revelation Theme
12. I noticed that objections to preterism are shallow, disjointed, biased, arbitrary, and inconsistent. Objectors are willfully blind about key passages and mostly regurgitate things they have heard from people who have not really studied the issue either. I particularly noticed that my preterist posts on Christian websites were mostly answered with anger and snark, with very little actual substantive biblical exegesis. I find this quite telling.
13. Bible teachers to whom I had been listening could not give meaningful answers to my challenging questions about prophecy. Worse, they seemed less interested in truth, and more interested in defending a presumptive position. I wanted to follow the Shepherd, not the sheep. I wanted to defend God’s Word, not an institution or creed.
14. I was really surprised at how professing conservative Christians take such pains to explain away the obvious in the Bible. They can twist Scripture and think they are doing the Bible a favor. For example, Jesus said “Truly, I say to you, THIS GENERATION will not pass away until all these things take place.” We can be sure that “this generation” means the generation to whom Jesus was speaking (and not some distant generation). Why? Because every other mention of “this generation” in the New Testament is clearly about the first-century generation. Study more about Scripture Twisting in this article:
(Share this with your friends to start a good discussion about eschatology!)
We've not had the 1000 year reign.
There's been no mark of the beast system implemented.
He believes Jesus has already come in 70 AD though there is zero record of this happening.
I would seriously ignore this charlatan.
Mark of the Beast
Who or what is the “mark of the beast” of Revelation 13:16; 14:9? Prerequisites to this article are my other articles about When Revelation Was Written, The Central Theme of Revelation, and Who Was the Beast of Revelation—found at my website here:
https://prophecyquestions.com/category/revelation-2
As I demonstrate at this site, the Sea Beast of Revelation was almost certainly Rome, specifically embodied in Nero. Here’s a short summary:
The book of Revelation was written to a first-century audience, probably around AD 64. For example, Revelation 17:10 says it was being written during the reign of the sixth king, who was Nero. Nero was ruler of Rome from AD 54-68. So, we should expect the first-century readers to have been able to calculate the number. For the beast to be someone thousands of years in the future would have made no sense to the readers in the first century. Remember, the Bible was written FOR us, but not TO us. The first-century context is reinforced by some thirty passages in Revelation that teach its fulfillment as imminent and about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70 (Revelation 1:1-3; 20:6-20; etc.).
As every school child knows, the Romans used letters to represent numerals. Similarly, the Greeks and Hebrews assigned numerical values to their letters. Since Revelation was written by a Jew in a Hebrew context, and with numerous allusions to the Old Testament, we should expect the solution to deciphering the meaning of 666 to be Hebraic. It turns out that when Nero’s name is translated numerically into Hebrew, we find something very interesting. A first-century version of Nero’s name—Nero Caesar (Nrwn Qsr)—provides us with precisely the value of 666! While I will not go into detail here, you can check this out in various places. One book that goes into it is Kenneth Gentry’s book THE BOOK OF REVELATION MADE EASY.
The second beast, the Land Beast, was most likely Israel. This can be gleaned not only by Israel’s frequent association with The Land, but also by this statement, “It [The Land Beast] exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast” (Revelation 13:12). Remember that at Jesus’ trial, the chief priests cried out “We have no king but Caesar” (John 19:15). The Jewish leadership was in cahoots with Rome in the crucifixion of Jesus, as well as in the persecution of Christians!
In the Old Testament, we find this: “And the LORD said to him, ‘Pass through Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it. . . .” (Ezekiel 9:4-6).
David Chilton, in his book “Days of Vengeance,” taught that the mark of the beast in Revelation is a reference to Ezekiel 9. It is a “satanic parody of Israel’s allegiance to Rome.” So, who was wearing the “mark?” Apostate Old Covenant Israel in the first century.
But a slightly different view makes more sense to me. Ezekiel 9 is a vision about the coming annihilation of Judah and Jerusalem. The “mark” may simply mean that, in a prophetic sense, most Jewish people were “marked for death” while some seem to have been spared―i.e. “marked for life.” This is similar to the modern English phrase, “He is a marked man.” Revelation 14:9 speaks of God’s wrath falling on those who worship the beast, which suggests the Jews who had “no king but Caesar” (John 19:15). So, regarding Revelation, we see the scene repeated in the Jewish-Roman War of AD 66-70 when over a million Jews were killed by the Romans with only a few escaping God’s wrath.
The mark of the beast is not literal. How do know? Revelation 14:1 talks about Jesus’ and the Father’s name written on the foreheads of the 144,000. Such marking is obviously is not literal. No one ever puts God’s name on their foreheads. Rather, it has to do with allegiance or affiliation.
There you have it. This is not about us today. And it is not about computer chips under the skin, or other such ridiculous notions.
No...that's called eisegsis. Reading into the Bible what you want it to say.
>>And no one recorded this....no one.<<
There was an eyewitnessed event in 66 AD recorded by Josephus and Tacitus that could be Jesus and his angels coming in clouds:
“Not many days after the festival, on the twenty-first of the month Artemisius, there appeared a phenomenon so marvellous as to exceed credibility. What I am about to relate would, I conceive, be deemed a mere fable, had it not been related by eye-witnesses, and attended by calamities commensurate with such portents. Before sunset were seen around the whole country chariots poised in the air, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and investing the cities.” [Robert Traill, “The Jewish War of Flavius Josephus Vol II.” Houlston and Stoneman, 1851, Book VI.5.3, p.197]
“XIII. Prodigies had indeed occurred, but to avert them either by victims or by vows is held unlawful by a people which, though prone to superstition, is opposed to all propitiatory rites. Contending hosts were seen meeting in the skies, arms flashed, and suddenly the temple was illumined with fire from the clouds.” [Histories of Tacitus, in Clifford H. Moore, “Tacitus Vol II - Histories IV-V, Annals I-III.” William Heinemann LTD, 1962, Book V.13, Mat 24:30, p.197]
The timing is consistent with the prophecy that states Christians would go through the great tribulation, but escape the wrath (i.e., they would suffer persecution, but would be raptured before the Jewish rebellion that also began in 66 AD.)
It is important to note that Revelation 1:7 can be exegeted in this manner:
“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all [tribes of the land] shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” — Rev 1:7
Mr. Kalamata
No, He didn't.
Besides, what kind of second coming of Jesus happened that the whole world could miss?
Wouldn't it be a kind of anemic, impotent Jesus who could come back and not make a difference? You'd think people would have noticed.
His degree is useless.
Key word....”could”....not confirmation.
Even IF that could be considered fulfilled at that time in that way, doesn't preclude future fulfillment in another way.
FWIW< If you use the words *almost certainly* then no, you cannot *demonstrate* something happened, because you're not even sure yourself.
The Parousia was a divine coming in judgment against old covenant Israel to Jerusalem in AD 70. As another poster wrote, Josephus and other witnesses saw chariots in the sky over Jerusalem in AD 66. This satisfies the visibility requirement.
>>>>Jesus said in several ways that he would return within his generation.<<<<
>>I’d like to read those verses...<<
“And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.” — Mat 10:22-23 KJV
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” — Mat 16:27-28 KJV
“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” — Mat 24:31-34 KJV
Context is the key. Those promises were made to people Jesus was speaking to at the time.
Mr. Kalamata
And yet, isn't that more than the training grumpa meek doesn't have??
IIRC that is correct.
So when, exactly, did Jesus come back in the clouds and everyone saw Him and nobody recorded it?
Revelation was thought to be penned about 81–96 AD. How does that fit with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD?
No record of any theological training.
And if Jesus has already come back, what did He do when He was here? n And why can’t we tell?
Why did He leave again? And is He coming back again for a THIRD time? And where is that prophesied?
And what do you all see has the future of mankind? We keep going like this until we destroy ourselves?
You describe yourself as a Preterist, but that word stsnding alone is not enough. Are you a Full or Partial Preterist?
>>Or, the whole world means just that....the entire world. Context will be the key in understanding this passage and others.<<
No. The context for the Greek word in that passage, οἰκουμένη, is provided in this passage:
“And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world [οἰκουμένην] should be taxed.” — Luke 2:1
Augustus ruled and taxed the Roman Empire.
There is a Greek word for the whole world: κόσμος, or transliterated, kosmos.
Mr. Kalamata
TWENTY EVIDENCES WHY REVELATION WAS WRITTEN BEFORE AD 70
There is much confusion about Revelation because people reach their conclusions from the daily newspaper and their denominational echo chamber. Is that how we should interpret the Bible? Shouldn’t we rely on Scripture itself, and secondarily men who were closest in time to writing of the New Testament? That’s what I do in this article.
The dating of Revelation is important because it influences the interpretation of the book. There are two views of when Revelation was written. One view is that it was written around AD 95-96 during the reign of Domitian. The second view is that it was written in the mid 60’s AD, during the reign of Nero—prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. I will show that the early date has the strongest support from both the internal evidence and external evidence.
INTERNAL EVIDENCE
1. Revelation 17:10 says that the book was written during the sixth king, who was Nero, who reigned from AD 54-68. (The previous five Roman rulers were Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius.) Interestingly, the text also says that the seventh king to come would reign only “a little while.” The seventh king was Galba, who was ruler for only six months (AD 68-69).
2. Revelation 1:9 says it was being written during the Tribulation (Greek, thlipsis), which Jesus said would occur during his own generation (Matthew 24:15-34).
3. Scholars agree that the major theme of Revelation is a GREAT JUDGMENT upon “Babylon.” Babylon was an historic enemy of God’s people, and it is used symbolically in Revelation to represent Old Covenant Israel/Jerusalem who had become unfaithful. This is the theme of chapters 16-19. The Lord’s wrath, promised in Revelation, would come against “the GREAT CITY Babylon” (Revelation 16:19; 18:2, 10, 21; 19:2), which is clearly identified as the “CITY WHERE THE LORD WAS SLAIN” (Revelation 11:8-9). This unambiguously confirms that the Great Judgment was against JERUSALEM, and thus the identity of Babylon. Also confirming the identity of Babylon, is her description as a harlot (Revelation 17:1, 15; 19:2). Throughout the Bible, when Israel was unfaithful, she is characterized as a harlot or adulterer (Deuteronomy 31:16-18; Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20; 3:6-9; Ezekiel 6:8-9; 16:15, 26, 28; Hosea 1:2; 9:1). The harlot is adorned in purple and scarlet (Revelation 17:4), which are the colors of the ritual dress of the high priest and the colors that adorn the temple (Exodus 28:5-6; 39:1-2).
4. Revelation contains over 30 passages that demand its imminent, i.e. radical nearness of fulfillment. We see such statements as “must shortly take place,” “soon,” “near,” and “about to happen” (Revelation 1:1-3; 22:6-20; etc.). The wrath of God and the Lamb (Revelation 6:16-17; 14:19; 15:1, 7; 16:1; 16:19; 19:15―especially note 16:6; 17:6; 18:24; 19:2), then, is consistent with Jesus’ astounding condemnation of his fellow Jews in Matthew 23, which He insisted would be judged for all the righteous blood ever shed on earth—IN THEIR GENERATION. This judgment was because of their sins, failure to accept Him as Messiah, and their participation with the Roman authorities in Jesus’ conviction and crucifixion (Matthew 27:25). There is nothing post AD 95 that could qualify as such an imminent (“must shortly take place”) judgment. Only a pre-AD 70 fulfillment (prior to the fall and judgment of Old Covenant Israel) makes any sense. Case closed about Babylon and the Great Judgment.
5. In Revelation 11:1, John was told to measure the temple. This implies that the temple was still standing when the book was written, thus prior to AD 70. While some argue that this is about a spiritual temple, it would be a bizarre instruction if given at a time when the physical temple was just a bunch of rubble. And of particular note, the destruction of the physical temple in AD 70 is not mentioned by John in Revelation. It is inconceivable that, if John was writing after AD 70, he would not have mentioned the destruction of the temple, it being the center of the Jewish faith.
6. Revelation 11:2 says, “They will trample the holy city for forty-two months.” This statement is consistent with Jesus’ statement to his contemporaries: “When YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then you know that its desolation is near.” (Luke 21:20). Thus, some of those living in the first century would witness this. It cannot be coincidence that forty-two months is exactly the period of the Roman army’s final assault on Israel—from February AD 67 to August AD 70. So, Revelation had to have been written prior.
Continue here for the complete list:
https://prophecyquestions.com/twenty-evidences-why-revelation-was-written-before-ad-70/
So preterists would have us believe that in the midst of a discourse about the future events, Jesus, with no warning at all, changes the subject and for one sentence addresses the current generation and then goes back to addressing future events.
The *this generation* can easily mean, and it makes more sense for it to mean, this generation that sees these future events unfolding.
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