Posted on 03/08/2024 9:36:46 AM PST by Roman_War_Criminal
Ducttape45 - there has been no talk of the pre-tribulation rapture before Darby in the 1830s
Neither Irenaeus nor Hippolytus spoke of a pre-tribulation rapture. Neither did Tertullian, nor even Luther, Calvin etc.
On the contrary the earliest Christians wrote of the 70th week of Daniel ending with Christ’s FIRST advent. This was when the “spiritual temple” was established. Barnabas in the “Epistle of Barnabas”, written in 100 AD wrote about the 70th week having already been completed.
So, just 70 years after the Passion it was the widespread belief of Christians that the 70th week of Daniel was completed.
Teachings of the pre-tribulation rapture do not predate Darby in 1830 and I challenge you, ducttape45, to find ANY statement about the pre-tribulation rapture before 1830
There have been many here on FR who have already provided proof of the pre-tribulation Rapture being taught prior to 1830, so I’m not going to let you bait me into a conflict. There evidence is out there, typology throughout the scriptures attest to it, and all one needs to do is open ones eyes to see the truth. God said a great delusion would overtake the earth prior to the end, so if you cannot see it, then you don’t want to see it. With that, this discussion is over.
RWC - there is zero mention of a pre-tribulation rapture before Darby
The Shepherd of Hermas written about 100 AD says “You have escaped from a great tribulation...”
The writings of Pseudo-Ephraem explicitly rejects a pre-tribulation rapture.
Neither Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, nor any of the other writers of the Bible taught pre-tribulation rapture - and nor did the early church fathers in all their many writings, nor was it taught in any Christian group until the 1830s
none of this was ever taught prior to the 1830s and again only in the West, and only within certain western Christian groups.
It’s not even a polling question - Christianity never taught anything like a pre-tribulation rapture before Darby.
And even today, the majority of Christians are not those who follow the 19th century modernist philosophy of dispensationalism.
Echoing what fidelis wrote As soon as he started quoting small snippets of St. Ephrem out of context and expanding the interpretation of it, I could tell where this was going. The speaker was simply starting out with his erroneous premise and trying to shoe-in validation from isolated quotes.
Let's look at what Ephream the Syrian actually wrote
The Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem does not support a Pre-tribulation rapture============================================================================================The English and Latin texts of the first passages that are used by you to try to support the pre-tribulation rapture are
The Latin verb for "taken" in Rhodes' version are from teh Latin verb adsumo and most often means to "take for ne's self" or "take in addition to ones' self", or "take beside one's self".
Rhoades translation Actual Translation Latin Why therefore do we not reject every car of earthly actions and prepare outselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? (section 2) Why therefore do we not thrust from us all anxiety on account of earthly impulses, and prepare ourselves for a meeting with the Lord Christ, so that he might draw us out from confusion, which overwhelms all mankind? Quid ergo non proicimus a nobis omnem actuum terrenorum sollicitudinem et nosmet ipsos praeparamus in occursum domini Christi, ut nos eruat a confusione, quae uniursum obruet mundum? For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to thw Lord les they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins Truly all the holy and elect of God, before the tribulation that is about to come, are gathered and received to the Lord, lest at any time they see the confusion that will overwhelm all mankind in account of our sins Omnes enim sancti et electi Dei ante tribulationem, quae uentura est, colliguntur et ad Dominum adsumuntur, ne quando uideant confusionem, quae uniuersum propter peccata nostra obruet mundum Though the verb can be used where physical movement takes place if implied in the context, this is not a meaning inclusive in the word itself. In fact, it is most often to take without any actual literal movement being stressed at all, such as joining another to one's self in a relationship of position.
So the passage actually reads is
for all the saints and the elect of God are gathered and joined to the Lord before the tribulation that is to come, lest at any time they experience the confusion that will overwhelm the whole world because of our sins.reading into these a pre-tribulation rapture is false especially when the rest of the text is examined, which is usually ignored or neglected by most pre-tribulation rapture proponents - and it is important to tell you two what the passages do NOT say
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What the passages do and do NOT say
The most important thing to notice os that the focus of deliverance is not on the tribulation itself. Christians are instead being rescued from the "confusion" that comes with that tribulation
The passages do NOT say that there is a physical gathering that requires movement - nor is it even implied. There is no mention of leaving anywhere or going to any place
the Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem does NOT say we are being taken from the world or going to heaven. It simply emphasizes being gathered together to the Lord to be rescued from the confusion in a contrast to those who are being deceived and being gathered together to the AntiChrist
You can see this most clearly in section 5 of Pseudo-Ephraem
Then that worthless and abominable dragon shall appear, he, whom Moses named in Deuteronomy, saying: Dan is a young lion, reclining and leaping from Basan..."Basan" certainly is interpreted "confussion". He shall rise up from the confusion of his iniquity. The one who gathers together to himself a partridge the childrn of confusion, also shall call them, whom he has not brought forth, just as Jeremiah the prophet says. Also in the last day they shall relinquish him just as confused(section 5)This confusion is the same as found in 2 Thess 2:8-12
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
And Matt 24:24 "they shall decieve the very elect"
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Taking it from the Greek makes it even clearer -- "The elect are gathered together before the tribulation so that they might not know the confusion and the great tribulation which is coming upon the unrighteous world"
Absolutely nothing in the original Greek can be translated as "taken" and it does not say ANYTHING about being raptured.
Pseudo Ephraem says nothing that would support a pre-tribulation rapture - in contrast it says that the elect will not be deceived by the confusion and the great tribulation coming upon unbelievers
The writer indicates that Christians will be here during the tribulation "And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord" - implying that the harvesting of Christians will take place at the same time as the end of the world
Sections 9 to 10 again reject any kind of a pre-tribulation rapture
It is amazing to me that anybody can attempt to use this document to support a pre-tribulation rapture belief when it actually supports a post-tribulation resurrection position
Also, it is clear that he has never read Irenaeus
Irenaeus at no point supported pre-tribulation rapture. Not a single writing about thatIreneaus thought that there would be a 1000 year reign after the 2nd coming - and this was to have happened in 1000 AD.
alert - it didn't happen
even if you say 2000 AD - it didn't happen
Ireneus in Adv. Haereses, V, 33
he days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand clusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, "I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me." In like manner [the Lord declared] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear should have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds (quinque bilibres) of clear, pure, fine flour; and that all other fruit-bearing trees, and seeds and grass, would produce in similar proportions (secundum congruentiam iis consequentem); and that all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man.
Absolutely NOTHING about a rapture, nothing about pre-tribulation rapture
There is nothing in the Bible about the pre-tribulation rapture
By Jesus - absolutely nothing in the Gospels - no, not even the Olivet discourse speaks about any kind of rapture
Paul - 1 Cor 15 has no rapture. Neither is 1 Cor 15:51-54 --> there is NOTHING in this text that is about a rapture - the "we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." - nothing about rapture, secret or not. When death is destroyed and we are all raised, all tombs will be forever empty. No secret rapture
Philippians 3:20-21 --> this is about our bodies being changed, as at the second advent of Christ - NO pre-tribulation rapture
Col 3:4 - this is about Christ gloriously returning to earth to CLOSE the curtain on history - no pre-tribulation rapture
1 Thess 4:13-5:3 --> when Christ returns to earth, her returns to EARTH. Read the verses again! We will meet Christ at His second coming to earth - not a pre tribulation rapture.
2 Peter 3:10 - again, nothing about a pre-tribulation rapture
2 Tim 2:15 15 Be eager to present yourself as acceptable to God, a workman who causes no disgrace, imparting the word of truth without deviation.
15 σπουδασον σεαυτον δοκιμον παραστησαι τω θεω εργατην ανεπαισχυντον ορθοτομουντα τον λογον της αληθειας - it is "speaking the word of truth"
15 Sollicite cura teipsum probabilem exhibere Deo, operarium inconfusibilem, recte tractantem verbum veritatis. - "Be careful to present yourself trustworthy to God, an unmistakable worker, rightly handling the word of truth."
it is not "dividing" - not in Koine Greek, nor in King James English - it is imparting the word of truth without the deviation of the 19th century philosophy of the pre tribulation rapture
Keep posting them and I'll show you that none of those quotes are about the pre-tribulation rapture
Your link is to a slide show
It mentions again Irenaeus, who doesn't separate Israel and the Church - but calls the Church as the greater/expanded Israel.
Against Heresies 5.26.1 - as the slide quotes - yet fails to mention that Ireneus didn't write about any rapture have you, dartuser, read Ireneus's "Against heresies"? - I'd suggest you do
Note slide 9 which points out that The Church consists of both the spiritual and physical seed of Abraham - thereby meaning there is no dispensationalist separation of genetic Jews from the expanded Israel - the Church
You are wrong as usual.
I’ve posted this many times - whether or not you wish to accept the FACTS that is something entirely different as the RCC loves revisionism.
END OF DISCUSSION!
You have not posted any biblical or other proofs for your statement.
The sheer fact is that Jesus did not say, nor did Paul or peter write anything about a pre tribulation rapture.
The Olivet discourse does not have any rapture at all. The whole pre tribulation rapture philosophy is non biblical, as I have shown you above.
And no Christians before Darby had any such philosophy of the pre tribulation rapture
It is not a conflict. As I posted above, Ireneus did not write anything about a pre tribulation rapture.
And there is nothing about a pre tribulation rapture in Ephraim the Syrians writings.
The two links you gave above do not give any proof.
Have you read Irenaeus “Against Heresies “ yourself ? Please do and see for yourself that there is nothing about a pre tribulation rapture
“typology throughout the scriptures attest to it,”
Scripture refutes the pre tribulation rapture:
1. The Olivet discourse if you read and compare through Matthew and Luke, or even just Matthew alone, make it clear that there is no rapture mentioned by Jesus
2. The Pauline epistles do not make a case for a pre tribulation rapture, as I showed above
3. The book of the Apocalypse of st John of Patmos does not support any kind of dispensationalism, making it clear that John saw the church as composing of both the spiritual and genetic seed of Abraham.
4. Daniel’s vision was fulfilled at the first advent of Christ, 2000 years ago, which us why Jesus explicitly said that the generation listening to him in 30 AD would see His coming and that is corroborated by the writings of Josephus and the fact that the Jesus movement Jews saw 70 AD as a fulfilment of Jesus prophecy telling people to leave to the hills
Dude, just stop. You keep this up and I’ll report you to the moderator.
The pre tribulation rapture philosophy is embraced by those who of the persuasion that Jesus will not allow them to suffer physically, which is a critical factor involving the rapture debate.
That is why so many are in “churches” which are really just self-help centers for physical and emotional needs, instead of a called-out-assembly to proclaim God’s truth; the emphasis being on extrinsic rewards rather than intrinsic guidance. Questioning the legitimacy of the pretribulation rapture view is rejected by many based on their unproven belief that they have God’s blessings and will not suffer hardship. The Apostle Peter addresses these concerns in his first epistle.
” That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.”
(1 Pet. 1:7)
Peter understood that hardships would be concomitant with Christianity.
Or in in 2 Timothy 2:3: to endure hardness as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
The Messiah and His Kingdom were foretold to be coming during the fourth kingdom of the vision, when Rome ruled over Jerusalem. During that time, Christ would set up His Kingdom, which would grow to encompass the entire world and last forever.
This dovetails with the teaching of Jesus. “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sowed in his field; it is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches” (Matt. 13:31–32).
Christ certainly received His Kingdom no later than at His Ascension,
The public event that evidenced the coming of Christ in victory was the destruction of Jerusalem’s Temple in 70 A.D., as instigated by the little horn, Nero. It was a public judgment that clearly proved to all mankind that Jesus was the victor in Heaven over His enemies on earth. No other event created the instantaneous, worldwide publicity necessary to illustrate to the Sanhedrin that Christ was seated at the right hand of the Father.
If the sacrifice of Jesus had superseded the Old Covenant ceremonies, people would naturally wonder why animal sacrifices continued in Jerusalem. The letter to the Hebrews stands as a tribute to that confusion in the very early Church. Within the generation of His accusers, Christ with His judgment eliminated the source of confusion. Once the Old Testament system of animal sacrifices had been eliminated, the Ecclesia of Jesus movement Jews was free to grow unencumbered by the continued existence of 2nd temple Judaism and the confusions it caused.
God will not allow a resumption of animal sacrifices in light of His Son’s final Sacrifice, as clearly seen in Hebrews 9:24–26: “Christ has entered … into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer Himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the Holy Place yearly with blood not his own; for then He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, He has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”
I just gave you enough scriptural proof for why the pre tribulation rapture is non biblical. Do read the Bible and if you wish, get back with further questions.
God bless and keep you away from the evils of dispensationalism
Oh I always post Biblical proof and facts.
You just gloss over them with your Roman Catholic, Preterist, Heresy-believing glasses on.
You just seem to get everything wrong.
Stay ignorant Cronos.
And fwiw....I won’t reply to you ever again. And if you keep doing it - I’ll hit the abuse button just like I have in the past.
You’ve been warned.
In your posts here youm RWC, disputed tye fact that there is no mention of the pre tribulation rapture philosophy before Darby. You did that in post 11 without any facts.
Here are facts: there is zero mention of a pre-tribulation rapture before Darby. Nit in Ireneus, nor Tertullian, nor any Christian before the 19th century.
I challenge you to find one instance where the pre tribulation rapture is mentioned before the 19th century.
The Shepherd of Hermas written about 100 AD says “You have escaped from a great tribulation...”
The writings of Pseudo-Ephraem explicitly rejects a pre-tribulation rapture.
Neither Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, nor any of the other writers of the Bible taught pre-tribulation rapture - and nor did the early church fathers in all their many writings, nor was it taught in any Christian group until the 1830s
none of this was ever taught prior to the 1830s and again only in the West, and only within certain western Christian groups.
So, I repeat to you, RWC, I challenge you to find one instance where the pre tribulation rapture is mentioned before the 19th century
1. The revived Roman empire is after the end of the Julian-Claudian dynasty. Gog is more in what is now Turkey. There is no reference to China in the Bible and only a part of India is mentioned.
2. It is only Medvedev making these statements and he is the recognized mad-dog of Putin, making wild statements to scare Putin’s enemies, but giving Putin plausible deniability
3. Your landmass of the west includes Guatemala and Mexico?? and “Western Europe” is not 3.9 million square miles. it is only 0.9 million square miles. The 3.9 million sq miles is all of “Europe” which includes European Russia.
err.. where does St. Paul mention "the abomination of desolation" in the letters to the Thessalonians??
similarly, it's only in 1 Tim that you have apostasy mentioned by St. Paul. Did you mix that up?
“Your landmass of the west includes Guatemala and Mexico?? and ‘Western Europe’ is not 3.9 million square miles. it is only 0.9 million square miles. The 3.9 million sq miles is all of ‘Europe’ which includes European Russia.”
Thanks for the clarification and fact-check.
First, I was merely speculating about what specific area a “fourth part of the earth” in Revelation 6:7-8 might be referring to. I do not see enough details in the Bible to predict what is going to happen to America. But I was speculating that if we cease to exist or are sent back to the Stone Age, it would not be inconceivable from a Biblical perspective. America may not be that important. Sadly.
“Gog is more in what is now Turkey.”
I have not spent any significant time studying about Gog and Magog. My impression is that Gog is a person rather than place. But I could be wrong.
Ezekiel 38:2-3 NKJV
Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, and say, “Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.”
“There is no reference to China in the Bible and only a part of India is mentioned.”
It is speculated that these passages may refer to China:
Revelation 9:13-16 NKJV
Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.
Revelation 16:12-14 NKJV
Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
“Kings of the east” are from the east of Euphrates which runs from Turkey through Syria and Iraq to the Persian Gulf.
Currently, China and India have about 2 million and 1.5 million active soldiers respectively. There aren’t that many nations that can produce an army of 200 million soldiers. But both nations have well over a billion people and could potentially put together an army that size. America certainly can’t. Perhaps this prophecy refers to a coalition.
A lot of speculation. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing necessarily. We just shouldn’t put too much confidence in things that are speculative. There are plenty of things that can be understood with a great deal of certainty. And these are the things that are relevant and impact choices we may need to make.
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