Posted on 07/27/2022 9:49:29 PM PDT by fidelis
LOL
So lame.
The words of Christ are a lot of things.
One thing they are not is “lame”.
See my tagline. When you want to discuss things in a non-snarky, adult, and Christian manner, I’m all ears. Otherwise don’t bother.
“Do you “teach” that Mary was without sin? Do you “teach” that she was born without sin?”
__________
https://www.walksinrome.com/blog/room-of-the-immaculate-conception-vatican-museums-rome
Following the proclamation of the dogma (Ineffabilis Deus) of the Immaculate Conception by Pius IX (r. 1846-78), which took place in St Peter’s Basilica on December 8th, 1854, the pope decide to immortalise the event with a series of grand frescoes.
The frescoes (1856-65) in the Sala dell’ Immacolata Concezione were executed by Francesco Podesti (1800-95), who had been present at the proclamation.
The fresco of the Proclamation of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception occupies an entire wall in the room. Pius IX, by his own request, is depicted standing rather than seated. During the ceremony the pope had been obliged to stand up when a ray of sunlight unexpectedly shone in his face. As the day was overcast, the sunbeam was interpreted as heavenly confirmation of the dogma. In the fresco the sunbeam emanates from the cross in the top left corner.
Directly above the pope is the Virgin Mary and the Holy Trinity. Although Mary is in the centre, she is not on the same level as the Father and the Son, but a little lower. She may be the immaculate mother of God, but she is also human.
On the right-hand side of the fresco, Adam opens his arms to Mary, while Eve bows her head in shame. The faces of Eve and Mary are identical, for, according to the teaching of the Fathers of the Church, Mary is the new Eve.
The Immaculate Conception is the belief that the Virgin Mary was conceived free from the stain of original sin.
https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/immaculate-conception-defined-by-pius-ix-8040
Immaculate Conception Defined by Pius IX
Author: Pope John Paul II
IMMACULATE CONCEPTION DEFINED BY PIUS IX
Pope John Paul II
According to this dogmatic definition, it has been revealed by God that Mary was preserved from original sin from the moment of her conception
At the General Audience of Wednesday, 12 June, the Holy Father continued his catechesis on the Immaculate Conception, this time discussing the dogmatic definition of the doctrine by Pope Pius IX. “We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which asserts that the Blessed Virgin Mary, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God, and in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, was preserved free from every stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and, for this reason, must be firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful”, the Pope said in his Bull Ineffabilis.Here is a translation of the Holy Father’s catechesis, which was the 23rd in the series on the Blessed Virgin and was given in Italian.
1. Down the centuries, the conviction that Mary was preserved from every stain of sin from her conception, so that she is to be called all holy, gradually gained ground in the liturgy and theology. At the start of the 19th century, this development led to a petition drive for a dogmatic definition of the privilege of the Immaculate Conception.
Around the middle of the century, with the intention of accepting this request, Pope Pius IX, after consulting the theologians, questioned the Bishops about the opportuneness and the possibility of such a definition, convoking as it were a “council in writing”. The result was significant: the vast majority of the 604 Bishops gave a positive response to the question.
After such an extensive consultation, which emphasized my venerable Predecessor’s concern to express the Church’s faith in the definition of the dogma, he set about preparing the document with equal care.
Blessed Virgin is free from every stain of sin
The special commission of theologians set up by Pius IX to determine the revealed doctrine assigned the essential role to ecclesial practice. And this criterion influenced the formulation of the dogma, which preferred expressions taken from the Church’s lived experience, from the faith and worship of the Christian people, to scholastic definitions.
Finally in 1854, with the Bull Ineffabilis, Pius IX solemnly proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception: “... We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which asserts that the Blessed Virgin Mary, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God, and in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, was preserved free from every stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and, for this reason, must be firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful” (DS 2803).
The Virgin Mother received the singular grace of being immaculately conceived “in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race”, that is, of his universal redeeming action.
The text of the dogmatic definition does not expressly declare that Mary was redeemed, but the same Bull Ineffabilis states elsewhere that “she was redeemed in the most sublime way”. This is the extraordinary truth: Christ was the redeemer of his Mother and carried out his redemptive action in her “in the most perfect way” (Fulgens corona, AAS 45 [1953], 581), from the first moment of her existence. The Second Vatican Council proclaimed that the Church “admires and exalts in Mary the most excellent fruit of the Redemption” (Sacrosanctum Concilium,n. 103).
Solemn definition serves the faith of God’s People
4. This solemnly proclaimed doctrine is expressly termed a “doctrine revealed by God”. Pope Pius IX adds that it must be “firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful”. Consequently, whoever does not make this doctrine his own, or maintains an opinion contrary to it, “is shipwrecked in faith” and “separates himself from Catholic unity”.
In proclaiming the truth of this dogma of the Immaculate Conception, my venerable Predecessor was conscious of exercising his power of infallible teaching as the universal Pastor of the Church, which several years later would be solemnly defined at the First Vatican Council. Thus he put his infallible Magisterium into action as a service to the faith of God’s People; and it is significant that he did so by defining Mary’s privilege.
Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
19 June 1996, page 11
L’Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
The Weekly Edition in English is published for the US by:
The Cathedral Foundation
L’Osservatore Romano English Edition
320 Cathedral St.
Baltimore, MD 21201
Subscriptions: (410) 547-5315
Fax: (410) 332-1069
lormail@catholicreview.org
You forgot: “Our Lady of the Lake”.
That’s the name of the Catholic church near Pickwick (man-made) Lake, part of the TVA waterway on the TN river.
Man-made....
Hmmm,.. I sense a strange coincidence.
Wow!
An ENTIRE wall!
Thank you. It's actually metmom's list. I was only responding to it.
Do Catholics make so much of Mary because they want to lift up the woman's gender? It's kinda their long-held version of "gender equity."
That Catholic's "make so much about Mary" is a matter of perspective. From the Church's view, what it officially teaches about Mary is the fruit of 2000 years of meditation on her role in salvation history as found in the Scriptures and in the lived experience of the Church from it's earliest days. One could conversely ask why Protestants don't say enough about Mary
The Church has held Mary in high regard for her role in salvation history from it's earliest days-- long before anyone was concerned with all of the modern gender equality stuff.
Curious. fidelis, I ping'd you because Elsie's list runs contrary to your claims HERE. And to be fair, Elsie provides no official source for these claims about Mary.
Elsie posted more than one list on that thread so I'm not sure which to respond to. You'd have to point me to her specific remarks that supposedly contradict what I said.
Also, fidelis - Do you "teach" that Mary was without sin? Do you "teach" that she was born without sin?
I'm mostly a Bible teacher so it doesn't often come up in my usual ministry, but if I were a Catholic catechist and that were the topic at hand I would teach it. One reason I would do so is because that it is what the Church teaches. But I wouldn't teach this doctrine (or anything the Church teaches) unless it was based on scriptural, historical, and reasonable evidence.
1. I was not snarky (at least in my last post to you.) I don’t make the claim that I won’t be snarky.
2. “One of the purposes of humor, especially satire, is to illuminate the truth in ways other than lecturing people (which they will tune out). It can be a great weapon for truth.”
3. You couldn’t answer the two questions I posed without contradicting yourself. “one guy in new jersey” DID have the guts to say that your “church” teaches that Mary was sinless.
4. I’ve seen your type in here before.
5. See MY tagline - It is a reference to (among other things that have gone badly in a broken world,) your “church”
Snarky?
yes.
True?
yes.
Yes.
The proclamation of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception by the Holy Father Pope Pius IX has been wowing everyone, the faithful and otherwise, since 1854.
I was typing while you responded to my question. You led me to believe that you weren’t going to answer when you said, “Otherwise don’t bother.”
You aren’t gutless, it appears.
Apparently not. Only unwilling to waste time on people that can’t carry on a civil conversation, especially if they profess to be Christians.
I didn’t contradict myself at all and I did answer your question. I said that the sinlessness of Mary was a teaching of the Church, and if I was in a position to teach it I would.
That’s fine. But don’t expect me to continue to converse with you if you do.
I’ve noticed that the older I get the smaller they keep making the print in Bibles! Fonts used to be comfortably large when I was a boy; now they make them look like ants.
That's why I use a Bible app on my laptop and tablet. Plus, I have dozens of translations and commentaries at my fingertips.
What is your Scriptural proof that Mary was sinless?
(snark-free question)
Be sure to make your response consistent with these:
Genesis 6:12 God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.
Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 5:8 But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Kings 8:46 “When they sin against You (for there is no man who does not sin) and You are angry with them and deliver them to an enemy, so that they take them away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near;
Ecclesiastes 7:20 Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.
Romans 3:10 as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one;"
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned
Psalm 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.
Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
Psalm 53:1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God,” They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice; There is no one who does good.
Psalm 53:3 Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
Psalm 143:2 And do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For in Your sight no man living is righteous.
Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Matthew 7:11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
Luke 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”
Matthew 15:18-19 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
Jeremiah 30:14 ‘All your lovers have forgotten you, They do not seek you; For I have wounded you with the wound of an enemy, With the punishment of a cruel one, Because your iniquity is great And your sins are numerous.
Jeremiah 44:9 Have you forgotten the wickedness of your fathers, the wickedness of the kings of Judah, and the wickedness of their wives, your own wickedness, and the wickedness of your wives, which they committed in the land of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
Jeremiah 32:30 Indeed the sons of Israel and the sons of Judah have been doing only evil in My sight from their youth; for the sons of Israel have been only provoking Me to anger by the work of their hands,” declares the Lord.
Jeremiah 32:32 because of all the evil of the sons of Israel and the sons of Judah which they have done to provoke Me to anger—they, their kings, their leaders, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Romans 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
.
Here are some key words and phrases to keep in mind:
all flesh
every one of you
we
none
all
both Jews and Greeks
everyone
I look forward to your reply. It needs to be indisputable and consistent with my list of verses from God's Word. It should not be from "tradition", uninspired declarations of man, or wall paintings.
I disagree. One of the purposes of humor, especially satire, is to illuminate the truth in ways other than lecturing people (which they will tune out). It can be a great weapon for truth..
You’re actually making my point from the last thread. But with that said, I’d add an 11th to this list...
11. I am a sinner and I put gods before God. I am lazy and focus on my creature comforts before I focus on reading my bible daily.
Actually I’m not. Using humor to poke fun at something to make a serious point is entirely different than dumbing down the Gospel to make it appeal to peoples laziness by passively being entertained.
I’d be happy to, but I don’t feel compelled to simply submit to your conditions. They are based on the unbiblical notion of Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) which I do not ascribe to. Of course, if you can prove that doctrine from the Bible to my satisfaction I’ll gladly answer under your conditions.
I am not at home and so do not have access to the teachings about Mary that Catholicism promulgates.
I will address some of that by Monday.
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